Matthew Henry says so but I always put him, Queen of Sheba and Ninevah in the same lot of merely being graced with the ability to recognize the greatness and authority of God. They saved?

__________________
Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

I agree with you that Niniveh only repented outwardly and not evangelically, but I do think that king Nebuchadnezzar was regenerated, otherwise, God would have crushed him permanently just like he does to hardened reprobates.

__________________
Jean-David Jutras
URCNA
Alberta

Dan 4:37 "Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble."

Does Neb. mean God can only humble him partly, and not fully?

To what does the language: "righteousness" (right works) and "justice" (just works) of God refer? Or asked a bit differently, What sort of revelation of these things do we thinks God gave him?

Daniel preached the gospel to this man for over 40 years. Neb.'s language reflects acquaintance with Psalms texts. I think maybe it took that long to reach him, that much time and a divine humiliation.

If we only had Pharaoh to teach us the power of a hard heart, I think the lesson would be: there are some people not even God can break without shattering into a million shards of waste. I think Nebuchadnezzar proves that impression false.

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us.
--Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --

to Pastor Bruce. The story of King Nebuchadnezzar's conversion (IMHO) and subsequent proclamation of God's sovereignty is one of my favorite stories in all of Scripture.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Bruce makes a very good point by comparing Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar's experiences. Truly, the Lord is able to bring low to destruction or bring low and raise up again. God sits in the midst of kings (Psalm 82.1). The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will (Prov. 21.1).

I think also it would be a most remarkable thing to have a whole chapter of Scripture penned by an unconverted man.

__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

I'm honored to have your counsel gentlemen.

All four of you place King Nebuchadnezzar in the book of life according to your studies. Your unity of mind with Christ is probably moreso than mine so I must continue to ask questions for my benefit.

Pastor Bruce, I answered the questions in my mind as you laid them out and the first is that we know God will fully humble all at Judgement including Pharoah: "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the father." Satan will, too.

Satan will not be saved but I see him making a similar statement to that of Nebuchadnezzar. In what way are they different and do they signify salvation for the King? Again, Satan will not be saved.

Forgive me trying to look more deeply into this differentiation between the two.

God Bless and have a good night.

__________________
Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

I'll just add that when every knee bows, it is at judgment. Rom 14:10-11. Satan is judged already. Nebuchadnezzar, like all men, has not yet faced judgment, yet he confessed God.

Just last night I was taken by the similarity between the last part of Daniel 4 and the last part of Psalm 50:

It seems to me that King Neb. indeed praised God, glorified him, and ordered his conversation aright. He acknowledged God's sovereignty.

I think on such promises we can think he was shown salvation as well.

__________________
R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Well certainly we rejoice in that God is no respecter of persons and that sometimes faith is found in the most unusual places. Who would have believed that God would have been pleased to bring a harlot from Jericho into congregation of His elect people? Nebuchadnezzar at the very least espouses some good theology upon the restoration of his kingdom.

I've always leaned toward not considering his claim as an expression of saving faith. Having said that, I am certainly not dogmatic and I certainly would not wish to allow a petty skepticism to distort what could be a beautiful expression of God's grace and mercy.

Nebuchadnezzar's proclamation was not unlike other that he had made. In 2:47 He remarks: "Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets,"

He goes on to construct the golden image.

In 4:2-3 "Peace be multiplied unto you. I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me. How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation."

He goes on of course to revel in the power of his might. It is difficult to ascertain within the context of polytheistic society if such claims, while perhaps fully believed as spoken, are the product of a man with the saving knowledge of God in his heart or a man who is merely impressed by the god of the Israelites, which he dares to include in his bevy of deities.

The narration in Daniel ends with his the proclamation following the restoration of his kingdom so it is difficult to know whether or not this remark marked the end of his wickedness or was just another in a series of pious remarks.

Of interest is also Isaiah 14, that prophecy that describes the doom of a Babylonian king(s). It is not clear exactly who Isaiah speaks of. Some have suggested Nebuchadnezzar, others Belshazzar. Others (such as Calvin) interpret the passage to refer to the dynasty of the kings of Babylon. If Calvin is correct in considering the passage as referring in some sense to Nebuchadnezzar, one would have to grapple with the concept of his being brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit have any bearing upon his eternal state.

It's an interesting discussion. At the end of the day I am not certain that it is possible to dogmatically state one way or the other. Sometimes I have wondered if the speculation on our part is even profitable. (I say this as one who has over the years listened to a lot of passionate discussion regard the state of his soul)

__________________
Bob Leverton
Elder, Faith Baptist Church
Family Blog: http://levertonfamily.blogspot.com/

I just came across this in James B. Jordan's commentary on Daniel (The Handwriting on the Wall) and wanted to share it ...

__________________
Anthony Beadles
Christ The King Presbyterian
Clearwater, Florida

WE cannot know Nebs heart (of course) but, in my very humble opinion looking at the Holy-Writ it seems a sincere thing.

__________________
~etexas~

And what about Rom 10:8-10?

If he came to my church with his testimony from Dan 4, I would baptize him.

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

This brings up an interesting question. If Nebuchadnezzar was saved, why wasn't he circumcised and made a Jew? If this had happened today, he would have been baptized.

__________________
[IMGL]http://x79.xanga.com/144c6b7b05d37172179798/w130772988.gif[/IMGL]

[IMGL]http://x18.xanga.com/b8cc2b4341633172177963/w130771430.gif[/IMGL][URL="http://www.harborpc.org/"]Harbor Presbyterian Church[/URL] (PCA)
[IMGL]http://x18.xanga.com/b8cc2b4341633172177963/w130771430.gif[/IMGL]San Diego, CA
[IMGL]http://x18.xanga.com/b8cc2b4341633172177963/w130771430.gif[/IMGL][url]http://www.xanga.com/elnwood[/url]

I think the simple answer was that he was not of Israel in the physical sense, yet he was of Israel spiritually. Romans 9:6. Without opening up a baptism debate, I think we could say that his heart was circumcised.

__________________
R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Calvin writes, But God intended him to become more and more blinded, as he is accustomed to treat the reprobate and even his elect at times. When men add sin to sin, God loosens his reins and allows them to destroy themselves. Afterwards he either extends his hand towards them, or withdraws them by his hidden virtue, or reduces them to order by his rod, and completely humbles them. He treated the king of Babylon in this way....But God wished in this way to render him more inexcusable, and although he did not bring forth fruit immediately, yet a long time afterwards, when God touched his mind, he very properly recognised this punishment to have been divinely inflicted. Hence this dream was a kind of entrance and preparation for repentance, and as seed seems to lie putrid in the earth before it brings forth its fruit, and God sometimes works by gentle processes, and provides for the teaching, which seemed for a long time useless, becoming both efficacious and fruitful.

When God, therefore, wishes to lead us to repentance, he is compelled to repeat his blows continually, either because we are not moved when he chastises us with his hand, or we seem roused for the time, and then we return again to our former torpor....But the singular benefit of God was this, Nebuchadnezzar, after God had often chastised him, yielded at length. It is unknown whether or not this confession proceeded from true and genuine repentance: I must leave it in doubt. yet without the slightest doubt Daniel recited this edict, to shew the king so subdued at length, as to confess the God of Israel to be the only God, and to bear witness to this among all people under his sway.

Meanwhile we must remark, how this edict of the king of Babylon receives the testimony of the Spirit; for Daniel has no other object or purpose in relating the edict, than to shew the fruit of conversion in King Nebuchadnezzar. Hence, without doubt, King Nebuchadnezzar bore witness to his repentance when he celebrated the God of Israel among all people, and when he proclaimed a punishment to all who spoke reproachfully against God. Hence this passage is often cited by Augustine against the Donatists. For they wished to grant and act of impunity to themselves, when they disturbed the Church with rashness and corrupted pure doctrine, and even permitted themselves to attack it like robbers.

...since King Nebuchadnezzar who was never truly converted, yet promulgated this decree by a kind of secret instinct. At all events, it ought to be sufficient for men of moderate and quiet tastes to know how King Nebuchadnezzar's edict was praised by the approval of the Holy Spirit. If this be so, it follows that kings are bound to defend the worship of God, and to execute vengeance upon those who profanely despise it, and on those who endeavour to reduce it to nothing, or to adulterate the true doctrine by their errors, and so dissipate the unity of the faith and disturb the Church's peace....He calls him The High God , meaning, doubtless the God of Israel; meanwhile, we do not know whether he cast away his superstitions. I however incline to the opposite conjecture, since he did not put off his errors, but was compelled to give glory to the Most High God. He so acknowledged the God of Israel as to join inferior deities with him as allies and companions, just as all unbelievers, while admitting one supreme deity, imagine a multitude of others. So also Nebuchadnezzar confessed Israel's God to be Most High; yet he did not correct the idolatry which still flourished under his sway; nay, he mingled and confused the false gods with the God of Israel. Thus he did not leave behind his own corruptions. He celebrates indeed with magnificence the glory of the supreme God, but this is not sufficient without abolishing all superstitions, and promoting that religion alone which is prescribed by the word of God, and causing his pure and perfect worship to flourish.

Hence he never willingly submitted to the God of Israel; and his affections were clearly but momentary, whenever they manifested any sign of piety. Because he besought Daniel so imploringly, we see his disposition to have been servile; just as all proud men swell out what they do not need any one's help, and become overbearing in their insolence; but when they are reduced to extremity, they would rather lick the dust than not obtain the favour which they need.

Reformation Study bible note on Daniel 4:34,35,37 Although Nebuchadnezzar confesses God's sovereignty, he does not confess a belief that the God of Israel is the only God.

__________________
~ Steven Bradford ~
Member Covenant Presbyterian, Chattanooga, TN

As a Presbyterian I hold Calvin in great esteem, but too often people appeal to Calvin as final authority rather than the Bible, Calvin was human, and like all humans he was not always right. I feel he reads this wrong and sets himself as a judge over another heart , which of course cannot be done. In this matter I do think Calvin was wrong.

__________________
~etexas~

Nice to see a post by Don! And a thought provoking question, of course.

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

An example of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, total depravity. This is sometimes overlook in the life of Neb. when reading Daniel alone.

6 Then the king of Babylon slew the sons of Zedekiah in Riblah before his eyes: also the king of Babylon slew all the nobles of Judah.
7 Moreover he put out Zedekiah's eyes, and bound him with chains, to carry him to Babylon (Jeremiah 39:6).

__________________
Gil Garcia
Rehoboth Reformed Church (RCUS)
La Habra, CA


"Indeed, one might say that as far as the doctrine of justification
is concerned, if you are not on the road to Wittenberg or Geneva, then the old proverb is indeed true: all roads lead to Rome." Carl Trueman

Yes, and we know that no one who is totally depraved can ever be changed. Nope. He's definitely toast. Some people not even God can change, assuming he wanted to.

C'mon Gil. No one who hopes N got saved when he was maybe 60 yrs old denies that he was as cold a monster as any back in the day he was invading countries and killing pregnant women.

And how about the fact that Zedekiah was (arguably) a worse sinner than N was? It was a horrific judgment, but he was rebelling... against both N AND God. Z was warned of the consequences, both human and divine.

And beside, N's total depravity HAS been mentioned by at least two different people in this thread.

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us.
--Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --

Pastor Buchanan,

Agreed! Just trying to put things into perspective using the Scriptures and God's Sovereign Grace over sinners adapted by Him despite their iniquities. God "probably" saved Neb. and look, not Zed.

17 And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father's brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
18 Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.
19 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that Jehoiakim had done.
20 For through the anger of the LORD it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until he had cast them out from his presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon (2 Kings 24:17-20).

__________________
Gil Garcia
Rehoboth Reformed Church (RCUS)
La Habra, CA


"Indeed, one might say that as far as the doctrine of justification
is concerned, if you are not on the road to Wittenberg or Geneva, then the old proverb is indeed true: all roads lead to Rome." Carl Trueman

Gotcha.

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI