Thread: Messianic Christians.

I met a Messianic Christian last night and we had a conversation about what is correct theology. He believes that Rome has corrupted our theology and that true worship is rooted in the OT still. He believes we should still be following all the rituals that we can excluding the sacrificial system because it pleases God.

I found 2 Scriptures that I believe refute his position, perhaps you all have more incite and Scriptures?

Galatians 3:3 (New King James Version)

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Colossians 2:16-17 (New King James Version)

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

What about this:

Galatians 2:11-14
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

I am one of the few who actually believes that Messianic Christianity is dangerous and can even border on heretical.
Most of the people I have spoken to about it, they are mainstream evangelicals, for some reason think that the Messianic movement is somehow closer the Biblical Christianity. Of course I disagree.

Originally Posted by Denton Elliott

I met a Messianic Christian last night and we had a conversation about what is correct theology. He believes that Rome has corrupted our theology and that true worship is rooted in the OT still. He believes we should still be following all the rituals that we can excluding the sacrificial system because it pleases God.

I found 2 Scriptures that I believe refute his position, perhaps you all have more incite and Scriptures?

Galatians 3:3 (New King James Version)

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Colossians 2:16-17 (New King James Version)

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

These are easy enough to counter-argue - one might say that they are not compelled into these rituals but they do it out of free obedience and love.

I had only heard them referred to as "Messianic Jews". But 'Messiah' can have a lot of nuances. If they are Christians why don't they call themselves Jewish Christians?

Originally Posted by Grillsy

I am one of the few who actually believes that Messianic Christianity is dangerous and can even border on heretical.

Originally Posted by dr_parsley

If they are Christians why don't they call themselves Jewish Christians?

Or how about just Christians?

This person says he is a gentile Christian. But he thinks most of our current worship is from Rome when it should be from the OT. I would love to give him Scripture to refute...

Interesting as I've had an in-depth conversation with someone who is influenced by this. He wanted to qualify "good" versus "bad" "Messianic" congregations but as I questioned him some striking themes emerged:

1) He believed some people with Jewish ancestry still must get their children circumcised (but not gentiles)
2) He said he took exception to the Westminster Confession section on Law that says that the civil law given Israel "as a church under law" has been abrogated except as general equity may require
3) He thought the modern political state of Israel was reason to re-examine our doctrine and the applicability of civil law as per the Confession
4) He thought Peter was only telling gentiles they could eat pork
5) He particularly disliked describing as the reason a person with some Jewish ancestry had to keep the Levitical laws (but not a Gentile) "as a standard of righteousness" and instead was vague in saying "cultural sensitivities."
6) He had no clear definition of who is Jewish for purposes of having to observe this (e.g. 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 or whether all Christians are spiritually that).

Needless to say, these positions are contrary to the Westminster summary and as I've done research (e.g. Calvin's, Henry's commentaries) they are not tenable. I even get the sense they are twisted. In fact, they are part of the problem the apostles Paul, Peter and others were dealing with in the first century.

Here's an even bigger concern, I was not able to explore- there are some real problems with the view of the Trinity among this.

This is a large area and I would like some input from some people familiar with this. While these issues are not new (e.g. Galatians), they seem new if this is the first time we have encountered them in this generation.

There are several groups of Messianic Jews out there, 2 denominations and a whole cat herd of fringers. of the denominations the UMJC is the only one that is vaguely orthodox. ( I spent many years in MJ synagogues). Marty Waldman used to be president of the UMJC and when I knew him he was almost reformed in his theology. Then you get the well known Arnold Fruchtenbaum who as a dispensational professor I once had said to me "Fruchtenbaum's dispensationalism is what you grew up listening to? From Fruchtenbaum? No wonder you think all dispensationalists are heretics". I won't go into the cat herd but there is a large group of MJ's who do not believe in Christ as teh Messiah at all and are waiting for the Messiah to appear.

My sense is it is fundamentally unbiblical to divide the world up into Jewish and Gentile believers now, mindful of such Scriptures as:

Colossians 3:11

11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Originally Posted by Scott1

My sense is it is fundamentally unbiblical to divide the world up into Jewish and Gentile believers now, mindful of such Scriptures as:

Colossians 3:11
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

By that reasoning (which I agree with BTW) that means that Dispensationalists of all kinds and most New Covenant Proponents are unbiblical. Marty and his fellow UMJCrs would heartily agree that we are one in Messiah and that the Messiah is Christ and that He came once and for all of the elect. The YJAA is more health Wealth Prosperity Charismatic slain in the spirit kind of group.

However from an internal perspective being a Messianic Jew ( in the mostly right circles anyway) is more like being an Ethiopian Christian, or a Coptic Christian it is a matter of upbringing and cultural heritage not us vs them. There are typically more non ethnic Jews in a Messianic Synagogue than ethnic though.

Can you speak to him concerning the OT rituals and ceremonial laws and the sort being but types and shadows for the coming Christ. Christ has come and fulfilled the law and therefore made us free to worship and obey. All are one in Christ as the scripture says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ`s, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." Galatians 3:28-29

Stan Telchin and Baruch Maoz (both Jewish Christians) have written books on the dangers of Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is just another spinoff the Charismatic Movement. They share the same distrust of Creeds, that the Charismatics have. A lot of them share the same shockingly heretical Christology that many Charismatics have. Also, the Soteriology of many Messianics is very works oriented. Their adherence to aspects of Rabbinic Judaism has resulted in many of them returning back to Judaism like a dog returning to vomit. Professing to be wise they have become fools.

Originally Posted by Michael Doyle

Can you speak to him concerning the OT rituals and ceremonial laws and the sort being but types and shadows for the coming Christ. Christ has come and fulfilled the law and therefore made us free to worship and obey. All are one in Christ as the scripture says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ`s, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." Galatians 3:28-29

I actually said this to him and he said, "Yeah and were does it say we should stop doing these rituals and start doing things differently."

He also doesn't believe in the "Trinity" and says that God actually manifested Himself in many more than three ways...very confused individual if you ask me!

Originally Posted by Scott1

My sense is it is fundamentally unbiblical to divide the world up into Jewish and Gentile believers now, mindful of such Scriptures as:

Colossians 3:11

11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

All Christians born again of the Spirit of God are truely Jews as they have been circumcised of the heart in the spirit(Rom 2:29). Most if not all Messianic Jews dispute this and state that this verse does not apply to Gentile Christians but only to them. I suppose this Messianic heresy is the poison fruit of Dispensationalism.