I'm interested in what the Reformed position is in regards to certain passages which seem to convey God's people as many as opposed to some suggesting that they are small.

For instance, Rev 7:9...

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

As opposed to Matt. 7:14:

"Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Looking forward to your thoughts.

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Kevin
Pastor
Primitive Baptist
Pensacola, FL

I've always taken those texts to be in perfect harmony. Given the population of the earth, the number of elect is small. Given how many people live in my city, I'd be hard pressed to be able to number even 10% of the world pop.
If I saw even 3 million people in one place at one time, Rev. 7:9 would be so real to me lol. If I saw 3 million next to 7 billion, I'd feel Matthew 7:14 in an entirely different way.
I know that's not theological, per se, but it's how I've seen those texts

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DeJuan
Grace Fellowship Bible Church (Independent)
Culpeper, VA

Eventually there will be many more saved than unsaved when they are all taken together.

Though often it is as our Master describes it, during times of spritual leanness, during times of great gospel outpouring many do come to faith in Christ. And greater times of blessing are promised in Scripture.

Christ is also there emphasising the difficulty of finding the way of salvation, especially if you do not ask for the assistance of the Spirit, are not willing to leave your sinful baggage at the gate, and are not prepared for an arduous journey, and the relatively few who find it compared with how many could have.

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Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

I've often seen this statement, but wonder where it comes from Biblically. Where are you getting this?

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

The Bible talks about the redeemed being a large number in Revelation and elsewhere, but does the Bible ever talk about the lost in such terms.

In the light of that, it would be rather anticlimactical if it turned out that the lost outnumbered the saved.

If you are a postmillenialist, as I am, you also believe that the nations are going to be converted to Christ for thousands of years, which would also lead one to believe that the redeemed will outnumber the saved.

1) The Bible never talks about the lost in such terms. You are correct, it doesn't give a number whether greater or smaller than the elect.

2) This statement about being anticlimatical is subjective and not based on Scripture whatsoever (just like point 1). So you can't say either way...


Unless you can show in Scripture where I am wrong, I can't see how your original statement is true.

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

I understand these passages to mean that there is a relatively small number of people in each generation who will believe in Christ and be saved. However, when all of the saved from the beginning until the end are before the throne there will be a great multitude.

For instance, we have 6 billion people or so on earth right now. There is only a small percentage of that number who will be saved. But that is just one generation among many. When we get to heaven we will be there with people from all generations so there will be a vast multitude of God's people brought together throughout the ages to worship him.

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David
PCA
Richardson, Texas

Saving faith is an immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, resting upon Him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of God's grace.
--C.H. Spurgeon

Does anyone want to take a crack at asserting that there will be more damned for eternity than those elected to eternal life?

I don't want to impose the postmillennial system on scripture, but systematically, I think we get an indication that the elect will vastly outnumber the unelect as Richard has pointed out.

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Dewey D
Reformed Heritage Church (Independent at the moment)
San Fransicko, CA

That certainly is a worthy thought to consider friend. If you're correct, then what that tells us is that 'few' is a relative term. This idea seems to be consistent with the time of Elijah, in which there were seven thousand who had not bowed the knee unto Baal.

Seven thousand, relative to how many? But if we were to add up that little flock over a period of time....well, you get the picture.

I've always understood that God works with a remnant. As much as I'd love it to be true, I don't see the elect outnumbering the reprobate.

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Bern
Evangelical
Kent UK

I don't think our Lord is saying that few over all will be saved, or that in every generation fewer rather than more get saved, such that there will never be a generation when the percentage of believers in a nation or in the world does not exceed the number of unbelievers.

The main point is that of those who seek eternal life only a percentage of those sometimes 5%, sometimes 20%, sometimes 80%, sometimes 95%, attain to it. Many are like the Rich Young Ruler, and are not willing for the cost. Certainly of our Lord's generation of Jews, a relative few were saved.

The language of the remnant simply means a subset of the whole. Sometimes the subset is a small number, sometimes it is a mighty nation.

It seems a strange way of doing things for the Scriptures to emphasise the largeness of the number of the redeemed, if they are exceeded, maybe many times over, by the largeness of the number of the lost.

And as a postmillenialist, which I derive from Scripture, I look at these things in that light. It's more of an implication of Scripture's teaching on eschatology, than a clear statement of Scripture.

Our Lord does many mighty strange things in our view. So? You aren't really proving anything with such logic. But rather your view is based on a subjective rationality (can I say that?). That is, it seems like this is your opinion, which is your presupposition, and so now you are trying to prove it through rational thoughts, which don't exactly prove anything.

Quote from Andrew
If you say so.

I'll maybe do further research on this and get back later.

So, do you have any positive, objective evidence to the contrary?

No my view is that one cannot say because Scripture isn't clear. I think one who says either way is just assuming.

MATTHEW 7:13-23
The Lord Jesus is speaking to mark the godly man from the hypocrite.


REVELATION 7:9
Revelation 7:9 is John's vision of the whole Church of CHRIST.



I like to think that the total sum (of the Church) will be as the sand of the sea.

Genesis 32:12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

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I agree, they will be like the sand of the sea or the stars in the heaven --> the church.

The trouble with setting a number: Revelation 20:7-8, "And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea."

This is the basic problem with your view then. And, it is likewise very subjective.

All nations will come to Christ, and serve Him, as nations:

One might argue that this is merely a theoretical statement, and that really, the nations are destroyed, but Scripture indicates otherwise:

Note that the heathen (or the nations) will fear the name of the LORD, and God will create a new people (discussed by Paul in Romans 11). The kingdoms of the earth will serve the LORD.

God will set up His standard among the Gentiles, and their whole societies will be so reformed that the kings will be nursing fathers to the church.

The abundance of all nations will come to our Lord Jesus Christ, and will praise, worship and serve Him.

When Jesus Christ came, at His first coming, the promise of Psalm 2 began to be fulfilled. All of His enemies will be made His footstool.

The train of Scriptures could go on and on. Suffice it to say, the kingdom of sin and Satan will be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: so that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: Christ will rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and he will be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.

Cheers,

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Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

I don't disagree with that.

Where do you see that societies will be so reformed from this?

Do I disagree?

Okay. I agree.

I agree.

Not found in Scripture.

Okay, so basically you really haven't proved anything here according to the OP. Most things here I agree with. The Civil Magistrate, no. But I don't think that is a big problem in this specific issue. It might be the means (in your view), but we are looking at the bigger picture I think.

Societies being reformed, sure if the Gospel goes forth and people are converted in said societies.

The point is, Scripture is not clear that the multitude of Christians (God followers) will be more or less than the multitude of pagans. At least not yet shown.

1 Chronicles 21:1, "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

I believe that L. Boettner makes an argument in his book on Predestination that the number of the elect may be be inferred to be greater than the reprobated.

AMR

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Patrick
Member, PCA
Chandler, AZ
ReformedTheologyInstitute.com

I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.

Did you take exception to your doctrinal standards? Have you studied the WLC and its proof texts on the matter?
Cheers,

Adam

No I have not, thanks for pointing out my error. You are right ON THIS POINT.

But still haven't proved anything...

The thought of whether or not the elect outnumber the reprobate is kind of straying away from my original question. So let's get back to the original thought: How do we harmonize the 'few' with the 'multitude'?

It is practically inescapable that Rev. 7:9 has reference to the totality of God's people. What must be determined is what the 'few' stands for. Is it a relative term, as has been suggested in this thread, suggesting that the elect are the minority in relation to the reprobate in a particular generation? Or something like this?

There is one other possibility that I know of. I have been around many who have suggested that the 'life' entered into is not equivalent to that eternal life that qualifies an individual for heaven's pure world. Instead it simply has reference to kind of a more abundant life here in this world, possibly involving knowledge of the true gospel of Christ, in opposition to the Arminian scheme which is held by multitudes today. The 'few' would then be a reference to a minority within the elect (kind of a remnant within the remnant if you will) who will be blessed to experience this 'life'.

Can't really say that I align myself to it but in order to open-minded I thought that I would set forth the thought for purposes of discussion.

Welcome, Sir.

Do you believe that the nations could be constitutionally Christian without the bulk of the population being individually Christians?

Cheers,

Would America be an example of that?

The idea of a "remnant" of faithful true believers arose in the Old Testament prophets. It is always a subset of the visible church i.e. all those who profess Christianity by baptism and the Lord's Supper, but that remnant could vary in different times and places, from 1% to 99% and anything in between.

The idea that "the few" of the text is a reference to Calvinists specifically is untenable. The Gospels don't deal in Calvinists and Arminians as such, but in believers in Christ and non-believers in Christ. The " few" in the text are true believers of all shades, while "the many" are unbelievers of all shades.

America, as a political Union of States, has never been explicitly constitutionally Christian (though good arguments could be made that it was implicitly). Certainly, the DOI was explicitly Reformed in its ancestry. All of the original States were constitutionally Christian. None of them have been for several decades now.

Do you think, however, that what the Bible prophecies about kings, rulers, judges and nations could be true if an itty-bitty remnant were all that truly believed?

Cheers,

Adam

Explain?

The covenant God made with Abraham included all families, nations, tongues and peoples. The model of Israel is not shifted to the church, but is prophecied to be repeated to all nations, this we call Christendom, or Christ's reign over all of the nations of the earth as King of kings and Lord of lords. In other words, Christ is head of Church and State, and is to be acknowledged and worshipped in both spheres.

For more detailed explanation of what used to be standard fare Presbyterian doctrine, you can read Symington's book, Messiah the Prince.

The reason that this affects the opening post is that the prophecies of the Old Covenant regarding the New (as I cited above), indicate that the bulk of the Gentiles will be saved. God will put His Name on all nations of the earth, and they will serve Him, before Christ returns in judgment.

Cheers,

Right that is what I thought you were saying but I was trying to avoid being trapped. It is clear you are a postmillennialist, I am not of that variety. I am an optimistic amillennialist however. That should answer your question.

Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords unto His mediatorial Church-nation, which constitutes the subjects of His Kingdom.

He does not rule over the nations directly as His mediatorial kingdom as did e.g. David or Solomon.

No church establishment, national covenant or application of God's law to the state, can constitute a nation like America or Britain Christ's Mediatorial Kingdom.

The members of the visible, and particularly the invisible Church, constitute the subjects of Christ's kingdom.

Rulers of the various nation states are not

(a) The Lord's Anointed. As were the leaders of Israel, including Moses and Joshua and David and Solomon.

(b) Nor deputies or vicars of the Lord's Anointed.

But they are

(c) Ministers of God

Having said that, I believe it is the duty of the nations of the world to recognise Christ's rule by appropriate church establishments, national covenanting, and appropriate and biblical application of God's law to the state.