Thread: Liquid to use for communion

This poll I hope is different than the previous poll in 2008. This poll has an option for people to choose either wine or grape juice at the same communion.

Yeah, I'm not the only one anymore. Someone else voted for wine only. Our church uses grape juice but the leadership believes wine is the proper element and hopes to eventually move in that direction.

Is the question which one 'should' be used, or which one 'must' be used?

Red wine with alcohol only, unless someone has a good reason for requesting something else for him/herself like red grape juice, non-alcoholic.

Originally Posted by KMK

Is the question which one 'should' be used, or which one 'must' be used?

I meant "should."

I'm not saying that wine is not a valid option, if that is preferred. My thought is that since communion symbolizes the blood of Christ and His presence is by faith in the heart of believers, we need not be legalistic about requiring wine. At the same time we probably shouldn't be legalistic about requiring not wine.

This is more practical than theological I guess is what I am saying. There may be younger people in the audience who are better off not being exposed to alcohol; even if it is "sanctified" alcohol. I'm not saying alcohol is inherently a problem, but why have something of questionable value brought into the service?

Originally Posted by PilgrimPastor

why have something of questionable value brought into the service?

Some believe it's simple:

Because it's commanded!

Although at this point I agree with you. At my church we see it as symbolism that is done justice whether with wine or grape juice--so we use grape juice as a matter of practicality and because we want to avoid causing any trouble for the recovering alcoholics.

In a perfect world wine only.

Originally Posted by AThornquist

Originally Posted by PilgrimPastor

why have something of questionable value brought into the service?

Some believe it's simple:

Because it's commanded!

Although at this point I agree with you. At my church we see it as symbolism that is done justice whether with wine or grape juice--so we use grape juice as a matter of practicality and because we want to avoid causing any trouble for the recovering alcoholics.

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

In a perfect world wine only.

I appreciate that very much. Both of your posts combined I think are a well suited explanation of a solid position. In this culture (this being the key idea in my mind) the use of wine can be a problem for some people. Surely the intention of Scripture is not to cause a recovering alcoholic a stumbling block in the celebration of communion.

I suppose a church could offer non-alcoholic drink for such people, but how could that possibly be done discreetly; perhaps in some cases. Thanks.

I certainly believe the Scriptures teach we should be serving wine only in communion, however, it is not the first issue I am going to stake my pastoral life on in a congregation.

Ideally, wine only, but I think a session could make an exception for an allergy.

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

I certainly believe the Scriptures teach we should be serving wine only in communion, however, it is not the first issue I am going to stake my pastoral life on in a congregation.

Very wise. I would encourage you to think about what your "non-negotiables" are, and what they are not. You don't want to die on every hill (or the wrong hill), but there are hills worth dying on.

I voted option 3. When I was growing up our church used Welchs grape juice, I have never been able to drink it without thinking about communion

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

I certainly believe the Scriptures teach we should be serving wine only in communion, however, it is not the first issue I am going to stake my pastoral life on in a congregation.

Very wise. I would encourage you to think about what your "non-negotiables" are, and what they are not. You don't want to die on every hill (or the wrong hill), but there are hills worth dying on.

I shepherd a Congregational Church which was formerly United Church of Christ. While this congregation has biblical moorings, in Congregational circles such as the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches, the major concern is whether the Pastor believes that the Bible is inspired. We have more immediately pressing concerns in our conferences I am afraid.

Thankfully, these folks left the UCC a handful of years prior to my coming - and want to follow Christ and grow in the knowledge of His word. I love the heritage of the Congregational Church and will stick where I have been called, but the honest biblical shepherd in our churches must be cognizant of where we have been in the last 50 years and mindful of the needs of those whom they serve.

At least in principal, this probably rings true to varying extents for us all.

-----Added 8/19/2009 at 10:19:33 EST-----

Originally Posted by historyb

I voted option 3. When I was growing up our church used Welchs grape juice, I have never been able to drink it without thinking about communion

I love Welch's grape juice. I drink it every evening. My wife recently told me that she thinks that I drink it because then I feel like I am taking communion every evening... she's probably right!

What about wine without alcohol?

Originally Posted by Edward

What about wine without alcohol?

What's the point?

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

I certainly believe the Scriptures teach we should be serving wine only in communion, however, it is not the first issue I am going to stake my pastoral life on in a congregation.

Very wise. I would encourage you to think about what your "non-negotiables" are, and what they are not. You don't want to die on every hill (or the wrong hill), but there are hills worth dying on.

Exactly! Whatever you do, don't mess with the annual Ladies Christmas Brunch or the Memorial Day Garage Sale!!!!!

Originally Posted by Reformed Thomist

Originally Posted by Edward

What about wine without alcohol?

What's the point?

Does this mean that if the communion cup has no alcohol, the communion is not valid.

Does communion revolve around the physical element of alcohol or the spiritual element of focusing on Jesus?

Originally Posted by Reformed Thomist

Originally Posted by Edward

What about wine without alcohol?

What's the point?

Just trying to find some common ground between the 'wine only' crowd and the 'no alcohol' crowd. And perhaps to show that it really isn't about wine.
'

Originally Posted by KMK

Exactly! Whatever you do, don't mess with the annual Ladies Christmas Brunch or the Memorial Day Garage Sale!!!!!

Did that once, messed with the annual garage sale... didn't bode well for me, but the funny thing was that the very sweet and gentle ladies who were upset had a completely different tune upon my confrentation of their poor attitudes than the song they were singing just prior to my arrival...

Wow,I was really surprised so many folks went with wine w/alcohol,I was an alcoholic and I dont know what I would do if that were my only option,excellent support for this viewpoint though thanks for the help with understanding this.

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

I certainly believe the Scriptures teach we should be serving wine only in communion, however, it is not the first issue I am going to stake my pastoral life on in a congregation.

Very wise. I would encourage you to think about what your "non-negotiables" are, and what they are not. You don't want to die on every hill (or the wrong hill), but there are hills worth dying on.

I wish you or someone else would post an entire thread on your sentence above, Pastor Fred.

We wrestled with this Brian, for the very reason you state. But we considered it the exception and that the exception, especially in light of the fact that it's a repercussion of sin, could not drive the rule. Win symbolizes too much to miss out on the blessing and opportunity to proclaim Christ in the communion remembrance. It is celebratory, which continually reminds us of the past, present and future aspects of the observation. Grape juice doesn't carry the same powerful statement. And, of course, Scripture simply states wine. Why bother with changing it?

Originally Posted by Reformed Thomist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward
What about wine without alcohol?

What's the point?

That's what I say about Decaf.

Years ago I used to attend a Church whish was also attended by American missionaries on a regular basis. In our Baptist Churches we use wine and wine only for the Lord's Supper, but for those missionaries an exception was made and while everybody was served wine they were given grape juice - the pastor refered to "their tradition to abstain from alcohol". To me it was totally unacceptable: if you come as a missionary to another country and work with local congregations, respect and accept THEIR traditions (especially if they are Biblically based), not bring yours. Or just stay home. And if you belive that wine should be used for the Lord's Supper, why make any exceptions like this?
I doubt that the pastor would be served wine in the missionaries' home Church in the US!
That was one of the reasons I left that Church.

I asked this in the other thread on wine and people have asked it here, but nobody seems to want to step up and answer the question:

Is it invalid and/or sinful to use grape juice/non-alcoholic wine in communion?

Originally Posted by PointingToChrist

Is it invalid and/or sinful to use grape juice/non-alcoholic wine in communion?

One must distinguish between “invalid” and “illicit,” the later meaning not authorized or warranted. For example, kneeling at a rail to receive communion does not make it “invalid,” but such practice is “illicit.” To this practice, John Knox objected while serving a congregation in England, and declined appointment as a bishop in the Church of England. Sitting or reclining is the proper posture for receiving the Lord’s Supper.

Wine is the proper element warranted by scripture. Unfermented , unfinished, immature, unprocessed “wine,” or its component grape juice, is not warranted by scripture, but not necessarily invalid.

“Sin” is any lack of conformity to the revealed will of God. All sins are not presumptuous; many are done in ignorance or without forethought or intent to sin. They’re still “sin.” In this life, none of us are without such to a greater or lesser degree.

Originally Posted by Igor

Years ago I used to attend a Church whish was also attended by American missionaries on a regular basis. In our Baptist Churches we use wine and wine only for the Lord's Supper, but for those missionaries an exception was made and while everybody was served wine they were given grape juice - the pastor refered to "their tradition to abstain from alcohol". To me it was totally unacceptable: if you come as a missionary to another country and work with local congregations, respect and accept THEIR traditions (especially if they are Biblically based), not bring yours. Or just stay home. And if you belive that wine should be used for the Lord's Supper, why make any exceptions like this?
I doubt that the pastor would be served wine in the missionaries' home Church in the US!
That was one of the reasons I left that Church.

I wonder which is worse, personally abstaining from wine when in a land of drunkenness, or leaving a church over secondary issues?

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Originally Posted by Igor

Years ago I used to attend a Church whish was also attended by American missionaries on a regular basis. In our Baptist Churches we use wine and wine only for the Lord's Supper, but for those missionaries an exception was made and while everybody was served wine they were given grape juice - the pastor refered to "their tradition to abstain from alcohol". To me it was totally unacceptable: if you come as a missionary to another country and work with local congregations, respect and accept THEIR traditions (especially if they are Biblically based), not bring yours. Or just stay home. And if you belive that wine should be used for the Lord's Supper, why make any exceptions like this?
I doubt that the pastor would be served wine in the missionaries' home Church in the US!
That was one of the reasons I left that Church.

I wonder which is worse, personally abstaining from wine when in a land of drunkenness, or leaving a church over secondary issues?

What is your evidence for such a cutting reply? One secondary issue has been raised. Our brother refers to a number of issues.

Originally Posted by Pergamum

I wonder which is worse, personally abstaining from wine when in a land of drunkenness, or leaving a church over secondary issues?

Well, for me at that moment it was neither a secondary issue nor the only one. And though I am not sure I would do the same thing now, after many years, I am still sure it was totally wrong for many reasons. Communion, besides other things, symbolizes the unity of believers. I understand that missionaries from the US were kind of VIPs and treated accordingly (nothing wrong with that - they did help a lot), but it does not mean that they should have had the VIP-communion apart from the rest of the congregation.
"I may be wrong, no doubt I am, I generally am wrong, but this is my opinion" (c) Bernard Shaw

Igor,

I am not decided as to the right or wrong of your action.

I give no judgment, but I do want to give an alternative perspective and give the possibility that equal or greater fault COULD (but maybe not) been yours. The elements, being a secondary issue, are much less of an issue than your willfull walking away from this church (i.e. divisiveness).

Were there other reasons as well for you leaving this church? You make it appear that the element of the Lord's Supper (wine or grape juice) was THE deciding factor, which appears troublesome.



Also,

I would love to hear your thoughts on these teetotalling missionaries, the reasons for their actions and how they interacted with local Russions. Did they try to make grape juice the norm or did they merely abstain from wine (i.e, where they disruptive and did they try to dominate, or did they fit in as much as their own peculiar convictions allowed). Was there VIP status resented by the locals, and did the missionaries encourage or discourage this status (i.e. were they trying to cultivate this status or trying to dissuade others from viewing them this way?)

How can these missionaries better bless the Russians? What lessons can you give us about Western missionaries from your experience and how can their practice become better?

Originally Posted by Pergamum

I give no judgment, but I do want to give an alternative perspective and give the possibility that equal or greater fault COULD (but maybe not) been yours. The elements, being a secondary issue, are much less of an issue than your willfull walking away from this church (i.e. divisiveness).

Were there other reasons as well for you leaving this church? You make it appear that the element of the Lord's Supper (wine or grape juice) was THE deciding factor, which appears troublesome.

Well, again, for me it WAS important. And you are right, this became the deciding factor. I believed the pastor was totally wrong and violated the Scripture, showing favoritism (James, 2) - we discussed the issue in his study later. I am not insisting it was the only right thing for me to do, but my conscience was hurt, I just could not stay there any longer.
We are now in good terms with the pastor and never remember that issue.

I would love to hear your thoughts on these teetotalling missionaries, the reasons for their actions and how they interacted with local Russions. Did they try to make grape juice the norm or did they merely abstain from wine (i.e, where they disruptive and did they try to dominate, or did they fit in as much as their own peculiar convictions allowed). Was there VIP status resented by the locals, and did the missionaries encourage or discourage this status (i.e. were they trying to cultivate this status or trying to dissuade others from viewing them this way?)

It was so many years ago, I can hardly remember the details. I was not very well familiar with those particular missionaries (I had joined that Church a few months before), but what I do know is that they did not try to dominate and impose their convictions on the congregation. And I do not remember their encouraging that "VIP-status" (though it was sometimes the case with others). As far as I know they only asked the pastor to give them grape juice because they abstained from wine and were not used to it. And I believe it was their big mistake. As well as the pastor's. I cannot think of anybody else who was also offended but me. But I was.

How can these missionaries better bless the Russians? What lessons can you give us about Western missionaries from your experience and how can their practice become better?

Oh, it will be off topic here, still I will try very briefly. First, a missionary must know the culture, the history, the language, and the traditions of the country, even become the part of the culture (avoiding sinful habits, of course) - otherwise he will remain an alien to locals and will never be trusted and respected. Then, he must regard the local Christians and remember he is here to help, not to lord it, even if he is a sponsor. It does not mean he should conform to legalistic prejudices, foolish traditions, and all, but he should be very considerate. Nothing hurts more than disrespect.
To be a missionary is a calling, it is a great sacrifice, not just a short trip to an exotic country.

Thanks Igor.

Your responses were a blessing to me. I would love to hear more from you about your perspectives as a Russian believer, especially when it comes to western missionaries and mission practices.

As iron, help sharpen me brother. God bless.

Originally Posted by Paul Nowlan

Does this mean that if the communion cup has no alcohol, the communion is not valid.?

It is probably valid -- the partaker in good faith may receive all of the spiritual benefits of the Sacrament -- but I am inclined to think that it is probably not licit.

We should be more concerned with Christ's wish than with whether something does the job.

I think wine is preferable... but please... use good wine.

And if you must use grape juice... please... don't use this:

If the element Christ used in the institution of the Lord's supper was wine, we have no more authority to change it than we do to change the element of baptism to apple juice.

Originally Posted by Robert Truelove

If the element Christ used in the institution of the Lord's supper was wine, we have no more authority to change it than we do to change the element of baptism to apple juice.

So, what do you tell a person suffering from an alcohol allergy?

Same thing you tell a person with a grape juice allergy.

Also don't forget all of you wine only folks, to be consistent and not hypocritical, you have to use whole grain bread too, none of that modern altered bleached white flour stuff.
That was not used in the Bible.

So if the actual substance matters, we should use common table wine of a similar alcohol content made naturally without preservatives or fermentation additives.

And a nice homemade whole grain bread.

I happen to agree all of this would be preferable.
But is it vital to the honorable celebration of the Supper?

Originally Posted by Glenn Ferrell

Wine is the proper element warranted by scripture. Unfermented , unfinished, immature, unprocessed “wine,” or its component grape juice, is not warranted by scripture, but not necessarily invalid.

Unprocessed? Don't you mean processed? They make the wine, then they take the alcohol out. Ariel: The World's Best Non-alcoholic Wines