***warning: news story contains 2nd Commandment Violation***

Jesus statue stolen from local church | Charlotte News, Weather, Sports | WCNC.com | Local News

A concrete statue of Jesus was stolen from a Presbyterian church.

Now, why would a PCUSA church have a statue of Jesus?

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Ain't that the truth.

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Norm
IA PCA

In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5

Someone went conservative and removed the 2nd Commandment violation.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

Praise Jesus!

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Any PB'ers from the Charlotte area that own a pickup?

Not all Presbyterians believe that images of Christ is a violation of the 2nd commandment....Sproul doesn't. I personally don't like them at all. But i can see Sproul's point even tho I wouldn't never have Christ's imagine around me.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

I was in Wake Forest for a few days but have witnesses.

I guess it's a good thing that there's no such thing as Images of Christ, then. Hence, no room for debate. These images and statues are not of Christ. And since they aren't, anything less than all Christ is (both His human and divine essence) would be abominable. And that's one of the points behind the 2nd Commandment. So we're all agreed. Right?

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Although I'm certainly as glad as any of you that the idol is no longer haunting this place of worship, should we truly be rejoicing or finding enjoyment in the breaking of another commandment --the 8th --, as it was removed by way of thievery, and not by lawful means?

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Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

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Sorry, Paul. I was just being light-hearted. I'm not rejoicing over anyone's breaking of the Law.

Well, well, well...

The house has been cleansed!

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William Price
Attending Mills Road Baptist Church, Houston, Texas

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If they are that conservative, what are they doing at a PCUSA church in Charlotte (where there are plenty of options available). And if they are liberal, why not just a statue of Gaia?

Is this a change of position on Sproul's part? I thought in Holiness of God that he said images of Jesus were forbidden. Maybe I'm just getting confused . . .

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Joshua F
Layman
Mountain View Community Church (Missionary Church Denomination)
Johnstown, CO

Exactly; one would think "earth mother" would be as likely.

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I don't remember that from Holiness of God. I believe in Truths We Confess he says that images of God the Father and the Holy Spirit are forbidden, but not of the Son Incarnate.

If someone wakes up, they may do some things before they move on. You might nail something to a door, smash an idol, burn some books, then unite with like believers.

Sproul is wrong. See the forthcoming article in The Confessional Presbyterian 5, by David VanDrunen. Pictures of Jesus and the Sovereignty of Divine Revelation: Recent Literature and a Defense of the Confessional Reformed View. Subscribe for 2009 here (see also the special on back issues):
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I know, Josh; your light-heartedness brings a smile to my face more times daily than the internet should be allowed to do. Re-reading the thread, I retract my previous admonition as it may have been out of place and too heavy-handed. Either way, I pray that the current lack of statue gives this church occasion to consider what such things mean, and that it is far better to be without it; I pray this act of vandalism works for the good of this congregation.

Thanks to the moderator who added the warning, and my apologies to all for not having done so myself.

I've been to Sproul's church (well, it's really Jesus' church, but you get my meaning). He's got great big giant canvases of the life of "Jesus" hanging down from the ceiling. It seems I remember Calvin saying something about this in the Institutes (and I would view it as a denial of the sufficiency of Scripture).

I'm guessing that this "Jesus" that disappeared did not really look like a Jew from Palestine in the first century, but instead was a long-haired effeminate Medieval European borrowed from Roman Catholic depictions. I'm sure that's not dishonoring to the Lord of Glory in the least.

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Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
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"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

rat brains!

Is this so?

Oh my! I think this is horrible. . .

I could never worship amongst such breaches against the 2nd commandment.

Sorry to say.

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Ronda Rush
Church of the Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California


" . . .It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4

-----Added 8/7/2009 at 12:22:40 EST-----

If you go here and get the sermon on "Images" you will hear him say that he believes that ppl who think that images of Christ are a violation of the 2nd commandment are Gnostic. He calls them his Gnostic friends. I love him anyway! No can be right on everything!

Here is R.C. himself on the subject:

"Actually, the commandment forbids pictures of anything, including Jesus, if used for the purpose of worship. It does not forbid having stained glass windows or pictures in the church, but it does forbid bowing down to them or seeking to worship God through them. After all, God decorated the Tabernacle with cherubim and other pictures, so simply having decorative or illustrative pictures in church is not the issue."

Sproul, R. (2000, c1994). Vol. 3: Before the face of God : Book three: A daily guide for living from the Old Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House; Ligonier Ministries.

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Thanks for that Dennis. A few things with regard to Sproul:

1) No one has a picture of "Jesus." Unless someone wants to lay claim to new mystical revelations, I don't think anyone (even Sproul) is in a position to state what He looks like.
2) God did decorate the Tabernacle, with specific instructions to do so in a manner just as He had commanded. I don't think comparing cherubim to the Lord of glory is a proper analogy either.
3) He displays these images in a place of worship. He does so for illustrative reasons. Yet he says they are not objects of worship. I fail to see how that squares.
4) Under Sproul's rubric, it would have been fine to have Aaron's calf in the congregation of Israel, just as long as no one actually worshiped it.
5) Does Sproul not think the Westminster divines wrestled with these issues? Not only is he taking an exception to the Confession, he is doing so in a manner that leads others to do so (by displaying the images in his church and by writing on the issue). This is problematic.

Joshua said and I agree: "I guess it's a good thing that there's no such thing as Images of Christ, then. Hence, no room for debate. These images and statues are not of Christ. And since they aren't, anything less than all Christ is (both His human and divine essence) would be abominable. And that's one of the points behind the 2nd Commandment. So we're all agreed. Right? "

I agree completely and as an ex roman catholic who is a convert to Protestantism and the Reformed faith I reject all images as irreverant and idoatry.

The only image I look at now is the empty cross like we have in our Presbyterian sanctuary,representing the risen Christ not the Christ who is sacrificed over and over again as in roman catholicism in the popish mass.

In grace,
Dudley

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In faith,
Dudley

May we all be Sons of the Reformation and continue to proclaim what it means to be Reformed Protestant Christians!

Referencing #1, I'm going to take one on "the day" and leave it on my screensaver for all those left behind. (Along with the 1599 Geneva shortcut on the desktop)

Will you have time, Rich? "Wait a minute, I need to grab my camera and..."

Rich would say, "I need to grab my camera and a White Castle Slyder."

One of the readers of the news article commented, "This gives new meaning to the phrase: "Have you found Jesus?" "

How can you have a picture of Jesus and not worship it. that would be equally wrong.

If it is depicting Our Lord we should think of Him as we see it therefore we should be worshiping Him as a result of it. When a thought of Jesus or a picture since I have been exposed to them int he past, comes to my mind, I worship Him.

I don't understand how Sproul in his analytical mind could possibly so compartmentalize them as separate.

But what about that bare cross, is it an image? What is its purpose? Is it an aid to worship? Why else have it there. One said reminds us of ascension. WHOse ascension?
It does not have to be an image of God Himself. That is what an image is. We can't make and exact replica of God no one knows what He would look like so the command would be meaningless if it only included replicas. Image is in representation of.

I agree that this is wrong to make an image whether you worship it or not.
It says do not make an image, and also do not bow down to it. It does not say do not make an image to bow down to.

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DonP

How do PCA congregations display images purporting to represent Jesus, the second persons of the God-head, and evade discipline by their presbyteries? Even if a minister or other officer should be allowed an exception to WLC 109, this is not license to ignore what it says in practice.

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Glenn Ferrell
Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Boise, Idaho

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I think manna will be on the menu, so I'll leave the Slyders behind

What if someone would have painted a picture of Jesus while he was on Earth?

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Jake; Hold to Original WCF, member of SBC; Greater Atlanta, Georgia Area

The cross does not give us a minor shift or two with regard to a few of our ethical and moral and religious values; the cross radically disrupts the very center and citadel of your life from self to Christ. —Albert N. Martin

They would have concrete evidence that they did

There are some ARP congregations with stained glass windows of "Jesus." I'm guessing these were probably installed during times of widespread ignorance of the Standards. It's bad enough (but also common enough) for laypeople to be ignorant of this, but why in the world would Sessions allow this to take place?

How can they remove an image of a person whose image was never duplicated?

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Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that because we don't know what Jesus looked like, the icons should be allowed to stand since they aren't "really Jesus"?

That seems like analogous to Aaron responding to Moses, "Don't get mad about the calf, little brother, since we all know that isn't what YHWH really looks like."

See this thread: Session's Response to LC 109 and Jesus Image Question

No, I'm not arguing for the false image, I'm emphasizing its false aspect through pointing out the absurdity in those pictures and statues that claim to be "Jesus" and yet depict a white man with blue eyes.