If death is a result of the Fall then...

shackleton · #1 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 07:48 AM

Lately I have been reading about sin. In doing so I have become abundantly aware of the fact that death is a result of the Fall as puishment for sin.

In regards to the person of Christ. Since He was born without a sin nature, (theoretically) He would have lived forever had He not been crucified? If death is really the cause of sin? Would He have continued to age since He made it to the age without looking any older? Did He look older at thirty then He did at twenty? Or would He just keep getting older without looking older?

When He did die, did He die because He was crucified? (Like the elves in Lord of the Rings, they could be killed but were not going to die on their own, being immortal), Or did He die because He had our sins laid upon Him, thus making Him sinful and able to die?

These are legitimate questions, I am not trying to be sacreligious. I am trying to understand more fully the nature of sin and Jesus' death on the cross.

I have also noticed that the belief in long creation days leads people to a belief that death is just a natural part oflife and not a result of sin.

Semper Fidelis · #2 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 08:49 AM

Romans 8:

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2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Christ did not come with an un-fallen body but came "...in the likeness of sinful flesh...." He experienced sorrow and pain - both emotional and physical. He grew in wisdom and stature.

Just as Creation was subjected to futility in the Fall so was flesh itself. There is no "...had Christ lived on longer theoretically..." for the very hour He would be crucified for the sins of many was foreordained according to the perfect counsel of God.

He did not come as some sort of "Superman" but came in a nature that could feel pain and could be tempted.

Yet He did not sin.

bwsmith · #3 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shackleton

Lately I have been reading about sin. In doing so I have become abundantly aware of the fact that death is a result of the Fall as puishment for sin.

In regards to the person of Christ. Since He was born without a sin nature, (theoretically) He would have lived forever had He not been crucified? If death is really the cause of sin? Would He have continued to age since He made it to the age without looking any older? Did He look older at thirty then He did at twenty? Or would He just keep getting older without looking older?

When He did die, did He die because He was crucified? (Like the elves in Lord of the Rings, they could be killed but were not going to die on their own, being immortal), Or did He die because He had our sins laid upon Him, thus making Him sinful and able to die?

These are legitimate questions, I am not trying to be sacreligious. I am trying to understand more fully the nature of sin and Jesus' death on the cross.

I have also noticed that the belief in long creation days leads people to a belief that death is just a natural part of life and not a result of sin.

I hope you will keep reading in Scripture, for you have raised questions whose answers magnify God’s goodness in becoming our only Sin-bearer. His nature is not theoretical, but actual. Christ Jesus was born in the likeness of man, but wholly without sin. (Deuteronomy 18:15; Phil 2:7-8)

And yes, after the Fall, death has been described by man as natural – but not God. (1 Cor 15:25-26)

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sin – So, from the beginning, God made a blood sacrifice, where by He might have compassion upon those His favor rests –

Christ became the curse – dying on the tree so that we might live free. (Galatians 3:13) He died because HE bore all our sins, each of our transgressions – He became sin, and the Father turned from Him. (Isaiah 53, esp. 4; 1 Peter 1:24; Heb 9:24-28) The wonder is that HE turns to us, having mercy, and smiling . . . (Numbers 6:25)

North Jersey Baptist · #4 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:58 AM

Erick - in addition to what Rich stated, our Lord's body was corruptible but is not incorruptible.

In John, we read:

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John 20:17 17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Having risen from the dead, His body was now incorruptible and it was in inappropriate for Mary to restrain Him. Jesus is also called the "first-born from the dead" (Col. 1:18). Having preeminence as the first-born from the dead, He was the first to fulfill Paul's statement on the resurrection:

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1 Corinthians 15:20-23 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

and...

Quote:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

During His first advent He was made like us. Rich has explained that well. But thanks be to God that He is risen and we will one day be like Him!

shackleton · #5 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 10:24 AM

I guess I was confused in thinking that Jesus, being the second Adam, was created under the same circumstances as Adam, without the curse of sin, but in reality He was born under the law and the curse of the law with all the effects of sin; sickness and death and the miserableness of life. Being tempted just like Adam, but without,sin, He earned eternal life for us. Then being raised from the dead gained His glorified body.

BJClark · #6 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 10:29 AM

shackleton;

In regards to the person of Christ. Since He was born without a sin nature, (theoretically) He would have lived forever had He not been crucified? If death is really the cause of sin? Would He have continued to age since He made it to the age without looking any older? Did He look older at thirty then He did at twenty? Or would He just keep getting older without looking older? [/quote]

How do we get he never aged or even looked older? Of course he looked older and aged, He was born a man in the flesh, the flesh ages..

Had He never aged or looked older He would have remained the infant...

shackleton · #7 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJClark

Had He never aged or looked older He would have remained the infant...

That's the point I was trying to get at. Are aging and looking older, and ultimately dying, the the curse of sin or the result of the Fall? Or, are they the natural result of life? If Christ was born without a sin nature, then would he have aged indefinatly and looked older?

If Christ did not have Adam's guilt imputed onto Him then He would not have been guilty, thus He would not have had the curse of sin, which is death. If this is the case did Christ die because He was crucified and in that death He had all our sins placed on Him thus paying for them? Or did He die because our sins were imputed onto Him and at that time making Him guilty and able to die and in His death paying for our sins?

I am probably not making sense or trying to derive too much out of it.

Semper Fidelis · #8 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shackleton

I guess I was confused in thinking that Jesus, being the second Adam, was created under the same circumstances as Adam, without the curse of sin, but in reality He was born under the law and the curse of the law with all the effects of sin; sickness and death and the miserableness of life. Being tempted just like Adam, but without,sin, He earned eternal life for us. Then being raised from the dead gained His glorified body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shackleton

That's the point I was trying to get at. Are aging and looking older, and ultimately dying, the the curse of sin or the result of the Fall? Or, are they the natural result of life? If Christ was born without a sin nature, then would he have aged indefinatly and looked older?

If Christ did not have Adam's guilt imputed onto Him then He would not have been guilty, thus He would not have had the curse of sin, which is death. If this is the case did Christ die because He was crucified and in that death He had all our sins placed on Him thus paying for them? Or did He die because our sins were imputed onto Him and at that time making Him guilty and able to die and in His death paying for our sins?

I am probably not making sense or trying to derive too much out of it.

I think your first quote is correct. He was born with fallen flesh. As Romans 8 states, all creation was subjected to futility by Adam's sin. While Christ did not have a sinful disposition, He still took on human flesh that was subject to the frailties of creation since Adam subjected it.

Who knows how men would have developed if not for the Fall. Biologically, infants would still be necessary because it would be impossible for a woman to birth a grown man. Maturity itself is not sinful nor is growing in wisdom and stature. At the point of physical maturation, however, I don't know if unfallen humans would have just stopped aging.

But that doesn't matter. Christ was not born with unfallen flesh. He was born to and subjected to a fallen Creation that He might be tempted in every way and yet not sin.

I'm not comfortable speculating any further.