See the top rated post in this thread. Click here

Results 1 to 30 of 30

Theological Forum discuss The Idolatry of John MacArthur in the Theology forums; The video is a reformed man publicly rebuking John MacArthur for breaking the 2nd commandment as it has to do with idolatry (purported images of ...

  1. #1
    Romans922's Avatar
    Romans922 is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,398

    The Idolatry of John MacArthur

    The video is a reformed man publicly rebuking John MacArthur for breaking the 2nd commandment as it has to do with idolatry (purported images of Jesus).

    On a theological level, we should all be in agreement that purported images of Jesus Christ have no place in worship, teaching, etc. given that this is a Confessional board and WLC 109 states, "Q. 109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment? A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counselling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them, all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt,hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed."

    However, on a practical level, this is John MacArthur, a well-known and respected theologian. He has been publicly advocating his position for years. Is he in the wrong? Should we ignore this? What can we learn from this?


    http://youtu.be/SKT6pFphWkU
    Last edited by Romans922; 10-06-2011 at 08:24 PM. Reason: content of video
    Elder Andrew Barnes (PCA)
    Christ Presbyterian Church (Kansas City, MO)
    Sermon Audio
    Twitter

  2. #2
    sevenzedek's Avatar
    sevenzedek is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    996
    Jon Dulin
    OPC
    Virginia

    The real question is not, as often pretended, between the Word of God and the creed of men, but between the tried and proved faith of the collective body of God's people, and the private judgement and the unassisted wisdom of the repudiator of creeds. –A.A. Hodge
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    sevenzedek's Avatar
    sevenzedek is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    996
    Jon Dulin
    OPC
    Virginia

    The real question is not, as often pretended, between the Word of God and the creed of men, but between the tried and proved faith of the collective body of God's people, and the private judgement and the unassisted wisdom of the repudiator of creeds. –A.A. Hodge
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    AThornquist's Avatar
    AThornquist is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    6,731

  5. #5
    J. Dean's Avatar
    J. Dean is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,396
    You're kidding, right?
    J. Dean, author
    EPC
    Flint, Michigan

    “If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ.”
    ― D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Romans922's Avatar
    Romans922 is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,398
    This is a confessional board. This is perfectly in line with the Westminster Standards.

    So, no kidding with me...
    Elder Andrew Barnes (PCA)
    Christ Presbyterian Church (Kansas City, MO)
    Sermon Audio
    Twitter
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    JM's Avatar
    JM
    JM is offline. Puritanboard Professor
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,809
    Jason
    Particular Baptist
    Ontario, Canada
    twitter
    Feileadh Mor
    YouTube

    We must remember that literally all our salvation is in Christ. - Herman Hoeksema

  8. #8
    VictorBravo's Avatar
    VictorBravo is offline. Administrator
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    8,514
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thread reopened to allow Original Poster to edit first post.
    Last edited by VictorBravo; 10-06-2011 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Not needed anymore
    R. Victor Bottomly
    Port Cities Reformed Baptist Church, Lewiston ID

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- How to access Politics and Government forum

  9. #9
    Jack K's Avatar
    Jack K is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,643
    Whether or not one agrees with MacArthur on the issue of making images, "idolatry" is too strong a word to use in rebuking him. "Idolatry" is commonly understood to include the direct worship of such images, which I can't imagine MacArthur advocates. Some other word would frame the issue more clearly and fairly.
    Jack K.
    PCA, worshiping with some fine Baptists in Colorado
    Gospel Teacher website
    Show Them Jesus: Teaching the Gospel to Kids
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Weston Stoler's Avatar
    Weston Stoler is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    725
    Macarthur is a very respected man of God. Just because he does not cross every T and dot every I of perfect doctrine doesn't make him an idolater. It just makes him human.
    Only the death of Christ can free us from our own depravity!
    Weston Stoler
    Presbyterian (PCA!)
    Decatur, Alabama

  11. #11
    Joshua is offline. _
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    20,386
    Blog Entries
    3
    Is there some reason he particularly pointed out Dr. MacArthur, a confessed dispensationalist and, thus, having quite a weak view of the Law, as opposed to Dr. R.C. Sproul, a confessing Reformed Presbyterian who seems to have no problem with purported images of Christ, and even goes so far as to say that the Westminster Framers share his view on the 2nd Commandment (when they clearly don't)?

    I confess, I'd love to see all idols smashed and publicly condemned. but I'm curious as to why Dr. MacArthur is the target, since He doesn't even confess the Westminster Standards or Catechism. Anyway, I'm not defending such practice. It's pretty clear where I stand. I'm just not inclined to watch the video.
    Josh
    CCRPC, RPCGA
    The Lord doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel. He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. - Ps. 147
    7 member(s) found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Joshua is offline. _
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    20,386
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Stoler View Post
    Macarthur is a very respected man of God. Just because he does not cross every T and dot every I of perfect doctrine doesn't make him an idolater. It just makes him human.
    And, ergo, an idolater. Like us all. But that's no reasonable excuse. We're all idolaters, if not in the 1st Commandment sense, then the 2nd.
    Josh
    CCRPC, RPCGA
    The Lord doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel. He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. - Ps. 147

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    7,264
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
    Is there some reason he particularly pointed out Dr. MacArthur, a confessed dispensationalist and, thus, having quite a weak view of the Law, as opposed to Dr. R.C. Sproul, a confessing Reformed Presbyterian who seems to have no problem with purported images of Christ, and even goes so far as to say that the Westminster Framers share his view on the 2nd Commandment (when they clearly don't)?

    I confess, I'd love to see all idols smashed and publicly condemned. but I'm curious as to why Dr. MacArthur is the target, since He doesn't even confess the Westminster Standards or Catechism. Anyway, I'm not defending such practice. It's pretty clear where I stand. I'm just not inclined to watch the video.
    "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

    James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
    Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS

    GraceAndLaw.net / The Edinburgh Inn


    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    NaphtaliPress's Avatar
    NaphtaliPress is offline. Administrator
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    18,333
    Blog Entries
    22
    Good question. Who is the guy in the video? And I agree folks like Dr. Sproul and Ken Gentry would seem to be more important to address (respectfully and as appropriate) since they attempt to contravene the original intent of the Westminster Divines and the import of LC 109.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
    as opposed to Dr. R.C. Sproul, a confessing Reformed Presbyterian who seems to have no problem with purported images of Christ, and even goes so far as to say that the Westminster Framers share his view on the 2nd Commandment (when they clearly don't)?
    Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
    • Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
    • Westminster Letter Press
    The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
    The Blue Banner Archive
    Calvin in the Hands of the Philistines: Did Calvin Bowl on the Sabbath?
    The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).
    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  15. #15
    Weston Stoler's Avatar
    Weston Stoler is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    725
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Stoler View Post
    Macarthur is a very respected man of God. Just because he does not cross every T and dot every I of perfect doctrine doesn't make him an idolater. It just makes him human.
    And, ergo, an idolater. Like us all. But that's no reasonable excuse. We're all idolaters, if not in the 1st Commandment sense, then the 2nd.
    HAHA agreed.
    Only the death of Christ can free us from our own depravity!
    Weston Stoler
    Presbyterian (PCA!)
    Decatur, Alabama

  16. #16
    Romans922's Avatar
    Romans922 is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,398
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
    Is there some reason he particularly pointed out Dr. MacArthur, a confessed dispensationalist and, thus, having quite a weak view of the Law, as opposed to Dr. R.C. Sproul, a confessing Reformed Presbyterian who seems to have no problem with purported images of Christ, and even goes so far as to say that the Westminster Framers share his view on the 2nd Commandment (when they clearly don't)?

    I confess, I'd love to see all idols smashed and publicly condemned. but I'm curious as to why Dr. MacArthur is the target, since He doesn't even confess the Westminster Standards or Catechism. Anyway, I'm not defending such practice. It's pretty clear where I stand. I'm just not inclined to watch the video.
    Put Sproul there, what do you say? It is a wide-reaching problem that needs to be addressed.


    The guy in the video is Matthew Lankford from http://idolatrycondemned.blogspot.com/
    Last edited by Romans922; 10-06-2011 at 09:58 PM.
    Elder Andrew Barnes (PCA)
    Christ Presbyterian Church (Kansas City, MO)
    Sermon Audio
    Twitter

  17. #17
    Marrow Man's Avatar
    Marrow Man is offline. Drunk with Powder
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    11,853
    I have seen recently, in presbytery exams, candidates taking exceptions to Q. 109 of the WLC, specifically with regard to mental images. These are guys in different presbyteries with different backgrounds. It seems like an odd exception to take, but I am wondering if there is some common source for taking this exception (a book or a common seminary prof?).
    Tim Phillips
    Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
    Louisville, KY
    Husband of Scottish Lass
    Father of Grace Cameron Phillips
    My Blog: Gairney Bridge
    My Facebook/My Avatar

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  18. #18
    NaphtaliPress's Avatar
    NaphtaliPress is offline. Administrator
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    18,333
    Blog Entries
    22
    What do you think should and can be done that isn't being done already?
    Quote Originally Posted by Romans922 View Post
    Put Sproul there, what do you say? It is a wide-reaching problem that needs to be addressed.
    Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
    • Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
    • Westminster Letter Press
    The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
    The Blue Banner Archive
    Calvin in the Hands of the Philistines: Did Calvin Bowl on the Sabbath?
    The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).
    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

  19. #19
    jogri17 is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,439
    R.C. sproul is on the reccord for disagreeing the the WCF of faith on this matter (in print). I do not know about y'all, but I'm grateful for SProul sr.
    Joseph P. Grigoletti II
    Bellingham, WA
    French Marketing Specialist for Logos Bible Software/Spécialiste du marketing pour Le Logiciel Biblique Logos
    Member of l'Église Réformée St.Marc in Québec(QC)(a member of the Église Réformée du Québec-ERQ) for another month or so.

  20. #20
    Marrow Man's Avatar
    Marrow Man is offline. Drunk with Powder
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    11,853
    If you attend a service at St. Andrews (the church where Sproul pastors), you will be struck by the half dozen or so gigantic banners hanging on the wall depicting the life of Christ.
    Tim Phillips
    Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
    Louisville, KY
    Husband of Scottish Lass
    Father of Grace Cameron Phillips
    My Blog: Gairney Bridge
    My Facebook/My Avatar

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

  21. #21
    steadfast7's Avatar
    steadfast7 is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,250
    Do those who form mental images of Jesus guilty of the same degree of idolatry as that of Hindus?
    Dennis Oh
    LBC 1689
    In transition, Seoul Korea
    "The gospel is only good news if it gets there in time" -- Carl F. H. Henry

  22. #22
    sevenzedek's Avatar
    sevenzedek is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    996
    If I said that there was a man who lived two thousand years ago who died for your sins and His name is Jesus you would have committed idolatry before finishing the end of this sentence. How can we not create a depiction of Jesus in our minds? He was made like us. We relate to Him. Well, um, He, uh, has hands like ours... but don't think about what He may have looked like in the face?!

    There are holes in the arguments that say we should not have ANY mental images of Jesus in our thoughts. Having a mental picture of Jesus walking to Jerusalem is not necessarily idolatry. Picturing His face when He spoke with the thief on the cross is not necessarily idolatry. And if it is not necessarily wrong to relate to the Gospel stories through mental images, then is it necessarily wrong to draw a picture of that mental image?

    I am still sorting through this issue myself and I am glad the topic was raised for us.
    Jon Dulin
    OPC
    Virginia

    The real question is not, as often pretended, between the Word of God and the creed of men, but between the tried and proved faith of the collective body of God's people, and the private judgement and the unassisted wisdom of the repudiator of creeds. –A.A. Hodge

  23. #23
    regeneratedbobby is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    17
    B O R I N G! Let him who has no sin cast the first stone, or better yet, let him with the perfect theology pass the first judgement.
    Bobby Rhoades
    Reformed, Christ Follower
    Sojourn Community Church
    Louisville, KY

    My Blog:

    www.worldaccordingtobobby.com

  24. #24
    Marrow Man's Avatar
    Marrow Man is offline. Drunk with Powder
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    11,853
    Quote Originally Posted by sevenzedek View Post
    If I said that there was a man who lived two thousand years ago who died for your sins and His name is Jesus you would have committed idolatry before finishing the end of this sentence. How can we not create a depiction of Jesus in our minds? He was made like us. We relate to Him. Well, um, He, uh, has hands like ours... but don't think about what He may have looked like in the face?!

    There are holes in the arguments that say we should not have ANY mental images of Jesus in our thoughts. Having a mental picture of Jesus walking to Jerusalem is not necessarily idolatry. Picturing His face when He spoke with the thief on the cross is not necessarily idolatry. And if it is not necessarily wrong to relate to the Gospel stories through mental images, then is it necessarily wrong to draw a picture of that mental image?

    I am still sorting through this issue myself and I am glad the topic was raised for us.
    For starters, I think the wording of the Larger Catechism is dealing with a context of worship (since it falls under the Second Commandment) and applies to that context (public and private devotions). It reads, in entirety:

    The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature: Whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense: Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.
    But with all due respect, some of these arguments against the application of the Ten Commandments do not strike me as being very sound (I am thinking mainly arguments I have heard from Presbyterians here). It is almost as if they wish to frame the Standards so that attaining perfection is a possibility. In other words, a "I can keep this part of it, but that's a little too difficult so I'll take an exception to it" seems to be what drives a lot of it. Would we accept that kind of argument if someone said the same think about adultery ("You can't look at a woman without having lustful thoughts") or coveting ("Boy, I wish my neighbor's new car were mine!"), using the argument that we can't help but think about these things. If our sinfulness makes us fall into sin, then we need to rightly recognize it as sin and not something to be tolerated or "excepted."
    Tim Phillips
    Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
    Louisville, KY
    Husband of Scottish Lass
    Father of Grace Cameron Phillips
    My Blog: Gairney Bridge
    My Facebook/My Avatar

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
    7 member(s) found this post helpful.

  25. #25
    Backwoods Presbyterian's Avatar
    Backwoods Presbyterian is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    17,149
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrow Man View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sevenzedek View Post
    If I said that there was a man who lived two thousand years ago who died for your sins and His name is Jesus you would have committed idolatry before finishing the end of this sentence. How can we not create a depiction of Jesus in our minds? He was made like us. We relate to Him. Well, um, He, uh, has hands like ours... but don't think about what He may have looked like in the face?!

    There are holes in the arguments that say we should not have ANY mental images of Jesus in our thoughts. Having a mental picture of Jesus walking to Jerusalem is not necessarily idolatry. Picturing His face when He spoke with the thief on the cross is not necessarily idolatry. And if it is not necessarily wrong to relate to the Gospel stories through mental images, then is it necessarily wrong to draw a picture of that mental image?

    I am still sorting through this issue myself and I am glad the topic was raised for us.
    For starters, I think the wording of the Larger Catechism is dealing with a context of worship (since it falls under the Second Commandment) and applies to that context (public and private devotions). It reads, in entirety:

    The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature: Whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense: Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.
    But with all due respect, some of these arguments against the application of the Ten Commandments do not strike me as being very sound (I am thinking mainly arguments I have heard from Presbyterians here). It is almost as if they wish to frame the Standards so that attaining perfection is a possibility. In other words, a "I can keep this part of it, but that's a little too difficult so I'll take an exception to it" seems to be what drives a lot of it. Would we accept that kind of argument if someone said the same think about adultery ("You can't look at a woman without having lustful thoughts") or coveting ("Boy, I wish my neighbor's new car were mine!"), using the argument that we can't help but think about these things. If our sinfulness makes us fall into sin, then we need to rightly recognize it as sin and not something to be tolerated or "excepted."
    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
    Pastor, Ellisville Presbyterian Church, ARP
    Ellisville, Mississippi

    ‎‎"Ministers of the Gospel, when dispensing the truths of God, must preach home to their own souls, as well as unto others. Sir's, we do not deliver truths or doctrines to you, wherein we ourselves have no manner of concern. No, our own souls are at the stake, and shall either perish or be saved eternally, as we receive or reject these precious truths which we deliver unto you. And truly, it can never be expected that we will apply the truths of God with any warmth or liveliness unto others, unless we first make a warm application thereof to our own souls. And if we do not feed upon these doctrines, and practise these duties, which we deliver to and inculcate upon you, though we preach unto others, we ourselves are but castaways." -- Ebenezer Erskine, "The Assurance of Faith", pg. 8

    Deo Vindice

  26. #26
    nicnap's Avatar
    nicnap is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    4,630
    Quote Originally Posted by regeneratedbobby View Post
    B O R I N G! Let him who has no sin cast the first stone, or better yet, let him with the perfect theology pass the first judgement.
    Would this be your line of reasoning behind all the commandments? Say a theologian were guilty of murder or theft or ... Perhaps you should rethink your statement/position.
    soli Deo gloria!
    ~Nicholas~
    Pastor, Boyce Memorial ARP, Kings Mountain, NC. (SermonAudio) GPTS Alumnus
    Christians are like snow covered dung; it is the purity of the covering which the Father sees. -Luther-
    There is nothing more ugly than a Christian orthodoxy without understanding or without compassion.
    -Francis Schaeffer-
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  27. #27
    Peairtach's Avatar
    Peairtach is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    6,446
    We inevitably create mental images when we read a book or read the Gospels.

    But because we are not given a full description of Christ anywhere in Scripture, if these images are in line with Scripture they will necessarily be partial and inchoate.

    We have no description of Christ's face but we know from a passage in Isaiah that He had a beard.

    We have a more complete description of Christ in His exalted and glorified state in Revelation 1, but we can't go beyond that in our imagination either.

    Actually - although it doesn't touch on breaking the Second Commandment - our mental images of the physical characteristics of other biblical characters, as with Christ, will be inchoate and incomplete also.

    E.g. we have no description of Adam, except that he was a nude man, Noah, Moses, David, Peter or Paul.

    ---------- Post added at 12:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by steadfast7 View Post
    Do those who form mental images of Jesus guilty of the same degree of idolatry as that of Hindus?
    It seems highly unlikely.

    But we should always remember that we don't know what he looked like, apart from the fact He was a man and keep within the bounds of the description Scripture gives us, and it doesn't give us much by way of a physical description of our Lord.

    Where these feminised images of Jesus with long hair came from, I don't know. Why do they always give him long hair like a woman? Have any been turned away from Christ through these images?
    Richard Tallach
    communicant member,
    Knox Free Church,
    Perth, Scotland GB

    His Name forever shall endure;
    last like the sun it shall:
    Men shall be blessed in Him,
    and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  28. #28
    steadfast7's Avatar
    steadfast7 is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,250
    Quote Originally Posted by Peairtach View Post
    But because we are not given a full description of Christ anywhere in Scripture, if these images are in line with Scripture they will necessarily be partial and inchoate.
    partiality of the image can't be the standing argument, because any and all mental images are necessarily partial - even mental images of those people we know well and see everyday. That's the nature of a mental image. Many who knew Jesus were forming mental images of him all the time and recalling what he looked like as they worshipped him. And all these images would have been partial.
    Dennis Oh
    LBC 1689
    In transition, Seoul Korea
    "The gospel is only good news if it gets there in time" -- Carl F. H. Henry

  29. #29
    Peairtach's Avatar
    Peairtach is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    6,446
    partiality of the image can't be the standing argument, because any and all mental images are necessarily partial -
    My mental image of you is much more complete than any mental image I could have of our Lord, because I've got a picture of you on the PB, but the Bible gives me very few details about our Lord, except that He was bearded, had scars in His hands, feet and side after His resurrection, and also the symbolical description of the glorified and exalted Christ in Revelation 1.

    Many who knew Jesus were forming mental images of him all the time and recalling what he looked like as they worshipped him. And all these images would have been partial.
    Those who knew Christ while He was on earth had the living Word of God before them, and the Holy Spirit.

    We have the Holy Spirit working through the written Word.

    Christ is both God and the Image of God. That Image is revealed to His people by the Holy Spirit through the pages of Scripture. Anything that is not revealed there e.g. any image of the Image of God, Christ, will only come between us and Christ, the one Mediator between God and Man.
    Last edited by Peairtach; 10-10-2011 at 01:41 PM.
    Richard Tallach
    communicant member,
    Knox Free Church,
    Perth, Scotland GB

    His Name forever shall endure;
    last like the sun it shall:
    Men shall be blessed in Him,
    and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

  30. #30
    VictorBravo's Avatar
    VictorBravo is offline. Administrator
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    8,514
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Peairtach View Post
    Christ is both God and the Image of God. That Image is revealed to His people by the Holy Spirit through the pages of Scripture. Anything that is not revealed there e.g. any image of the Image of God, Christ, will only come between us and Christ, the one Mediator between God and Man.
    Amen. After quoting and expounding on various passages from Old Testament scripture, Hebrews 2:9 tells us we do see Jesus. The means is through that testimony:

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
    Gill elaborates:

    But we see Jesus,.... Not with bodily eyes, but with the eyes of the mind, and understanding; that he is Jesus, as the Syriac version reads; and that he is designed in the above words; and that he has all things made subject unto him; and that he was humbled, and now exalted. . . .
    The eyes of the mind are not to dream up physical images, but an understanding of the full counsel of God regarding Lord Christ: his office, his person, his work, is stature, etc.
    R. Victor Bottomly
    Port Cities Reformed Baptist Church, Lewiston ID

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- How to access Politics and Government forum
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  31. #31
    Peairtach's Avatar
    Peairtach is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    6,446
    This question only really impinges on Reformed people in the limited connection of children's picture Bibles and other books about the Gospels used by children and possibly the mentally disadvantaged.

    Adult Reformed people are unlikely to be making use of books with images of Jesus, or if they do have any, they know how to regard or disregard such images. Nor will they have images of Christ on their walls.
    Richard Tallach
    communicant member,
    Knox Free Church,
    Perth, Scotland GB

    His Name forever shall endure;
    last like the sun it shall:
    Men shall be blessed in Him,
    and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72