It was mentioned on another thread that some members felt like they had been saved or regenerated again when they came under the knowledge of the Doctrines of Grace. The question posed is 'Can a man be saved without understanding justification by faith alone'. If you were saved under Arminian preaching and based your salvation on the altar call or prayers prayed, were you truly saved? Is it possible that you were regenerated and yet to be converted under sound preaching and sound theology?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.


Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Scott Bushey]

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Scott Bushey
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I told my mother that I wondered if I was ever truely saved before understanding the doctrine of grace.

She wasn't too happy with me.

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The question raised is a good one and I don't presume to know the full answer. It raises the additional question of whether any Arminian may truly be considered born again.

In my own case, having begun first as Arminian because that was all I knew, I believe that my conversion was grounded in the simple truth expressed in Romans 10:9-10:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For me personally (this is a very experiential post), the key verse in my conversion from the Baha'i Faith to Christianity was John 14:6. Once I was persuaded that through Jesus Christ alone one may come to the Father, I confessed Him to be my Lord.

I believe God wrought a change in my heart at that time, but I was woefully ignorant of the doctrines of grace.

When I first came into contact with the doctrines of election and predestination two years later, I embraced them whole-heartedly by the grace of God.

I thank the Lord that He opened my heart not only to believe that Jesus is Lord, but also that being dead in my sins, it was He who quickened me (much as He raised Lazarus from the dead) and from whom I received the gift of salvation by grace through faith lest I should think that my coming to Him was a work generated by myself wherein I might have cause to boast of my own righteousness (Eph. 2).

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IMO people who are truly saved believe in the doctrines of grace when they are saved, they may not know all the theological lingo but they know they are sinners, do not deserve mercy and that God has offered them salvation of His own will, it wasn't their idea. I frequently hear Arminians describe their experience of being pursued by God. It's later, sometimes not very much later, they get mixed up.

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Can one be saved if one does not understand justification by faith alone?

I think the short answer is yes.

To clarify, God's saving grace does not necessarily translate into a person at that moment having a full theological understanding of all aspects of the gospel. Also, the Confession teaches that elect infants and others not capable of responding to the outward call may nevertheless be regenerated. For a normal person who has been taught nothing more than "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life," I think it may be true that God has begun a good work in them that will show itself in time. If an Arminian resists the doctrines of grace to the end of his days, that may reflect a hardness of heart that belies his profession of faith. I am not prepared to say that all Arminians are unregenerate. I do believe that God will effectually call all of His children and that Romans 10:9-10 is the starting point of a credible profession of faith. I am prepared, however, to say that there are no Arminians in heaven.

Essentially, I think as long as one confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, then I think you should have assurance. Hopefully an Arminian is not putting their faith in walking down an aisle or a prayer anymore than a Calvinist puts his hope in his faith to believe that he is justified by faith. Christ alone saves and the message that Paul passed on as first importance is that Jesus died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was burried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance to the Scriptures...

However, that doesn't negate the fact that we grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, which includes experiences.

openairboy

So, you have to confess with your mouth?


This statement confuses me? Can you explain? I am putting my hope in this God given faith that I am justified accordingly.

Yup and believe.

All the faith in justification by faith won't justify you.

What of the infant, imbecile and mute?

In regards to belief:

Jam 2:19 You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.

~The demons believe; they are not saved.

Joh 2:23 And as He was in Jerusalem, at the Passover, at the Feast, many believed into His name, seeing the miracles which He did.
Joh 2:24 But Jesus Himself did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all,
Joh 2:25 and because He had no need that anyone should witness concerning man, for He knew what was in man.

These guys believed, but to no avail. Christ did not commit to them........It is Christ whom commits, not men. You can believe till the cows come home, but if Jesus does not commit to you, bye bye.

Joh 8:30 As He spoke these things, many believed into Him.
Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples.
Joh 8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Qualifiers: 1) Believing disciples.
2) Believing disciples whom continue
One are believing disciples whom continue, the others do not. One group is saved, the other not.



See above; I said 'hope'. That hope is in Jesus. Not something I say or do. Jesus will justify me.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Scott Bushey]

This conversation comes up freq. with my friends. Spreads to the topic of RC and many other "christian faiths" as well I would think. My question, always is, is not 'intellectual knowledge'--in that I mean understaning the workings of the doctrines of grace--in and of itself a work if we are saying that at some level that is required for salvation. God saves us, and hopefully by the end of the journey we have a good understanding of proper theology, but, I don't think one is "saved again" when one 'figures it out'. I think alot of people are still 'figuring it out'.

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Trevor,
There are certain things one must attain to be saved. Rom 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing. The concept of hearing is that the information is being stored, not just bouncing off the walls...........

In my original response I made a comment about mute, etc., but I really didn't think it would be necessary, so I deleted it, and I was wrong. Children of believers are holy. I know the Judge of all the earth will do right and the Scriptures, I don't believe, address this in a full manner and we can only try to deduce from statements that are directed at other topics. So I'll remain mute on it.

In regards to your faith comments, I will take God at His Word. I'm not left with endless speculation whether or not he has grasped me, etc., but know Him via covenant. He tells me to believe and promises anyone who believes will be saved. So I simply believe. God is faithful even when I am unfaithful and He cannot lie. If he tells me to believe and I believe, then he can't deny himself. And I too agree with James that man is justified by works and not by faith alone, so maybe our differences are semantic and not substantive.

"Perseverance of the saints" goes w/o saying at a "reformed" board. John Frame once said, "You can't say everything at once."

So, back to the topic, no, belief in 5 points won't save you.

openairboy

but if it is faith Given by God that saves, and not intellectual understanding, then how do we judge who fully "understands the doctrines of grace." It seems someone could at the depths of their thinking understand, "No way I get to heaven without Christ, my entire being is tainted with sin...I could not have accepted him without him grabbing me...etc" but this is at a deep level that they may not be able to fully articulate, but they cast their trust on Christ through faith alone,
----but do to the amazing amount of confusing doctrines floating around, ------and the lack of exposure to sound doctrines --
---say or 'think' some stupid things.....
Like me for example.
Now in my case, God continued the good work he started and over the years took me from Calvary Chapels, to Evangelical churches, (enter White Horse inn and RC Sproul) to reading through RC catechism, to a somewhat reformed church, and maybe soon to a fully functioning Reformed church. But I know I was saved when I first heard the gospel, because everything you and others here and elswhere have written --including the catechisms--in regards to how we are saved rang like the bells of heaven inside me when I read them, so I believe I knew them at some level thanks to God renewing my mind, but I may not have had a clear intellectual understanding of them all along the way.

I guess I wonder if it does not become a 'work' to some of the more informed and studied folks out there when discussing those that are less well versed in the doctrines of grace.

Praise God for this website and the references found here so we can find more elect and let the bells of heaven ring out for them, for, in my opinion, there are many elect confused in the churches of America today.

"Belief" is the 5 points...........

Men must come to certain conclusions to attain 'belief'. What would that be?

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Scott Bushey]

I was saved before I was a Calvinist. Salvation is not contingent upon Systematic Theology. Men are saved in spite of their theology sometimes.

However, you both agree that this 'belief' one has that expresses itself salvifically must represent certain components required to be saved, i.e. that Jesus is Lord, that He rose from the dead, that He is God..........?

I am not saying that one must be a Calvinist.

Craig,
But you did have a grasp of sin and the need for a savior no? Could one be saved without knowing their need?

I will also say that it is my belief that the Gospel compartmentalizes the D.O.G. You may not fully understand it, but generally they are there. I wouldn't call the Gospel systematic theology. Systematic theology is the Gospel laid out in view.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Scott Bushey]

I agree, you cannot say everything at once. I acknowledge perseverance of the saint; However, I also acknowledge all the warning passages in scripture.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Scott Bushey]

Is that in Book II of the Institutes?

It revolves more around the confession of who Jesus is: "Who do you say that I am?" "Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead." And 1 Co. 15 lays out what is of first importance, which includes his death. So believing in total depravity is not necessary for salvation, unconditional election is not necessary for salvation, limited atonement is not necessary for salvation, irresistable grace is not necessary, nor is perseverance of the saints.

openairboy

THAT is the question!

I disagree that man does not need to know his condition and his need for a savior. He does need to know his predicament and that he is totally depraved.

This guy knew his need and condition of total depravity:

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I suggest you look at the literal greek interpretation of Rom 10. The confession made there represents that which men have already taken hold of. Men that have been regenerated will assuredly confess with their mouths, that Jesus is Lord. Confession does not save, it is a result of being saved.

Denial of unconditional election is bordering on another gospel; Arminianism or semi Pelagianism. Do not men need to know that God saves, not men. Are Roman Catholics orthodox? Does their gospel save?

I would have to think about 'limited atonement'.........

All I am saying is that men need to have a certain level of certain components to be converted. Faith comes by hearing. This does not mean that men are not conciously processing the information and storing it. When I was saved, it was probably based upon mountains of spiritual information that I had heard throughout my life.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


understandeth!