Please forgive me if I am a pest on this issue.

In two other posts on communion liquids there has been input from people from both camps.

In the poll I started, however, I think I did a poor job of phrasing the question.

My question was too general.

I have a very specific scenario in mind.

I was in a men's meeting once. They were about to offer communion. One of the men broke down and cried because he was afraid the wine would lead him back into alcoholism.

What would you do?

__________________
Paul N.
Sovereign Grace Church of Toronto
The lot is cast onto the lap
But every decision comes from the Lord

From the other thread. I concur.

__________________
Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

1) offer the man grape juice instead.

Nothing can be gained by forcing a man to sin and for a recovering alcoholic such as you described it is likely a sin for him to drink.

__________________
Robert K. "Kelly" Brumbelow
In Inquirer's class at Grace Presbyterian (PCA) Cedartown, GA
Cedartown, Georgia

Dear Lord and Father of mankind, Forgive our foolish ways;
Reclothe us in our rightful mind, In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper reverence, praise. - John Greenleaf Whittier 1807-1892

Not a moderator here.

Click the "Thread Tools" at the top of your first post. Then click the adding a poll option.

__________________
Albert, The Republic of the Philippines
Pasig United Covenant Reformed Church (a Reformed church plant)
United Covenant Reformed Churches in the Philippines (UCRCP)
Three Forms of Unity and Westminster Confession of Faith

Psalm 27:1a (AV) The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
“Perseverance is the badge of true saints. The Christian life is not a beginning only in the ways of God, but also a continuance in the same as long as life lasts.” -

Thank you for sticking to the point, Paul, and following through to get it really clarified, after so much has been said all around it!
In the specific situation you have in view, I don't see how there can be any doubt that option 1 is the right one -- and isn't that all you were ever asking?

__________________
JennyG
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Fife, Scotland

Respectfully resign yourself to the fact that this man will not be partaking of the cup during the celebration of the Lord's Supper. Thankfully, the Lord has also provided bread, by which he may receive all of the spiritual benefits of the Sacrament.

__________________
Nathan Tyler
Reformed Baptist
University of Toronto (Student: Hons. B.A. in Philosophy)
Ontario, Canada

1689'er

http://nathantyler.wordpress.com

Is dealing with a reformed alcoholic different than dealing with an arminian alcoholic?

Just wondering.

__________________
We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
My Blog - Imprimis

Well, the first step of AA I think is recognizing that you are powerless, or something like that.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

It's all the fruit of the vine. That's why Sampson and John the Baptist couldn't eat raisins. Give the poor guy grape juice. I mean really, who here thinks that at Passover people just took a thimbleful of wine like we do? There are so many ways we don't even come close to observing the Last Supper the way it happened I can't see why anyone would say something like the amount of alcohol in the little thimble makes the difference between remembering and not remembering. Talk about straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

__________________
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Thanks for holding onto this topic till now. Your perseverance in pursuing this matter has helped clear certain things up.

And I'd say give the man grape juice too.

__________________
Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

Now this is funny:

But this is even funnier

__________________
Robert
Lay Person
PCA
West Virginia
Go share your faith

I chose other, you don't have to keep him from the supper, nor should he NOT drink wine. When the Jews at the time referred to 'fruit of the vine' they meant wine.

Here is a good article Andy Webb's church website: Providence PCA Mission Church - Bread and Wine

__________________
Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

I think so Lawrence.

A reformed alcoholic has a particular weakness that can cause him to stumble very easily on a common element used in communion. I don't want to help him stumble.

oops... I misread the question. A arminian alcoholic probably has ancestors in Turkey, whereas a reformed alcohol could have ancestors from anywhere.

oops.... I mean an arminian alcoholic freely chose fo become an alcoholic.

-----Added 8/21/2009 at 02:19:32 EST-----

Thanks Jenny.

I don't think option 1 is obvious anymore.

I grew up as a Christian in a church that ministered to many troubled souls - including me. A premium was always placed on "good intentions" and not causing a brother to stumble.

Therefore, I always assumed that grape juice was always an option at communion. (In fact, I've seen a Reformed church that had grape juice as the only option.)

I posted this second poll because I want to get a feel for how Reformed pastors handle reformed alcoholics. About 5 to 10% of the US/Canadian population is alcoholic. I am sure that many of these people would be drawn to church to get ministry.

Is there any biblical basis for speaking of a "reformed alcoholic" or "former alcoholic"?

__________________
Glenn Ferrell
Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Boise, Idaho

http://sovereignredeemer.org

http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_de...formationidaho


Nec Tamen Consumebatur


The duty of magistrates...extends to both tables of the law, ... those laws are absurd which disregard the rights of God, and consult only for men. - Calvin, Institutes, IV:20:9

Perhaps "redeemed drunkard" (or repentant drunkard) would be more proper terminology:

__________________
Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
My Blog: Gairney Bridge
My Facebook/My Avatar

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

My apologies. There may be no Biblical basis for these terms. It's just that when I have spoken to these people in the past, they will often refer to themselves as former alcoholics.

Rev. Ferrell, what training did seminary prepare you with to deal with alcoholics?

(BTW I am not an alcohol, former alcohol or drunkard.)

I didn't vote because I'm not in a position to make any such decision. But it seems acceptable on the same logic where we accommodate those who have an allergy because of malfunctioning bodies, to accommodate someone who has been addicted (and to deny that there is a chemical/physical side to such addiction seems to ignore that there is a such a side to our frame). To deny them the means of grace when grace is what they want and need doesn't seem Christlike. I'm not sure what to think, on realising that some positions argued seem to lead to a conclusion that I've never had legitimate communion in the blood of Christ: it would have been better for me never to have communion at all -- because I didn't have alcohol? Is this the joy of union with one another that one has more fully in alcoholic symbols? I don't mean that sarcastically. I find that thought distressing.

Does anyone know if all alcoholics are addicts in the same sense? I think many people drink because it's a drunken culture and that's how they socialise, party, forget about problems etc. -- whereas there are addicts who would spend the money for a dying daughter's medicine to satisfy a physical craving for alcohol. It seems like the first kind would have less difficulty making a recovery to drink alcohol in moderation again?

__________________
Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

Patience must dwell with Love, for Love and Sorrow
Have pitched their tent together here:
Love all alone will build a house tomorrow,
And sorrow not be near. -Christina Rossetti

Why was the sacrament being offered at a men's meeting?

__________________
Curt Lovelace
Pastor, Covenant Baptist Church (CBA)
Acton, Maine
Director, Lifework Forum
Sermons at SermonAudio.com/CBCActon
Blogging at Coffee with Curt

Hello Heidi,

That is an issue we are having to sort through.

Can a reformed alcoholic drink alcohol without becoming an alcoholic again?

I think some can and some can't. Personally, if I were a pastor, I wouldn't want to chance it.

How do seminaries deal with this issue?

-----Added 8/21/2009 at 03:48:15 EST-----

I have no idea.

Maybe "men's meeting" is bad terminology. All I know, that it was a gathering of men to discuss Christian topics and support one another.

This happened years ago, before I realized all the rules of Christian sacraments. The leader wasn't even an ordained pastor. He was just a nice man who the church wanted to informally teach men about God on personal basis.

The church was swamped with new members and pastors were overwhelmed.

I see no one has read through the article I posted. It does cover these questions that everyone is asking, and also speculating or coming to personal conclusions. The article deals with the Biblical stance that we should take.

Andrew, the article, though a helpful explanation of a position advocated here, didn't seem to add to the arguments already presented in these discussions, which have been countered by others (such as TimV)?

Voted other, as the Lord's Supper is to be celebrated in a church service only, administered by an ordained pastor, and accompanied by the preaching of the Word.

__________________
Bert Mulder
Elder of the First Protestant Reformed Church of Edmonton
Edmonton Alberta Canada

Bert thats a cop out, since the poll specifically states communion you can safely assume your points are covered. Now assuming communion is being properly administered how do you answer?

Not having done sufficient research on the issue as to whether grape juice is a suitable replacement for wine (lacking the alcohol to gladden man's heart), at a properly administered communion service, I would suggest he partake of the bread, but abstain from the wine.

-----Added 8/21/2009 at 04:21:56 EST-----

Remembering the argumentation of pastor Lewis, elsewhere on this forum, for the common cup....

Is it proper that 2 different sources of liquid are being served, as we believe, as our communion form puts it:

Besides,that we by this same Spirit may also be united as members of one body in true brotherly love, as the holy Apostle saith, "For we, being many, are one bread and one body; for we are all partakers of that one bread." For as out of many grains one meal is ground, and one bread baked, and out of many berries being pressed together, one wine floweth, and mixeth itself together; so shall we all, who by a true faith are ingrafted into Christ, be altogether one body, through brotherly love, for Christ's sake, our beloved Savior, who hath so exceedingly loved us, and not only showed this in word, but also in very deed towards one another.
For that matter, is it proper to use bread from 2 distinct loaves, or even 2 different types of bread, as is the practice where special gluten free bread is offered?

The man is dealing with the repercussions of his sin. Do we change or conform worship to adapt to the repercussions of sin? I have no desire to be insensitive and understand Tim's point. But this isn't a case of a man not being able to partake because of something someone else has done or imposed on him. He's dealing with the fact that he sinned and must live with the affects of that sin. We tend to dumb this down and placate man. But, as we see with David, sin has horrible repercussions, such as physically wasting away, weeping uncontrollably, spiritual torment and maybe even the death of a newborn child. God wiped out civilizations for their sins. He had every man, woman and child, along with all their livestock, destroyed because of sin. He brought great difficulties upon Israel because of their sin. Her sons were killed, eyes gouged out and sons made eunuchs because of sin. And, ultimately, He sacrificed His only begotten Son because of man's sin.
Though I certainly want to be careful not to be legalistic, I am equally concerned that we denigrate the sinfulness of sin all too easily in many cases. Perhaps we have a propensity to look at these situations through man's eyes too much and not through God's eyes enough.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

Well Andrew, I see Dr. Mark Herzer has answered all the questions.

That is one of the things I've noticed about this debate. Many here are truly certain that they understand church history and the condition of the human heart - and the proper interpretation of the Bible.

For example, in another thread someone declared that churches for 2,000 years have always offered communion with alcohol with no real problems. How does this person know this? Has he known every reformed alcoholic that took communion in the past 2,000 years. Has he known every pastor in the past 2,000 years. Has every pastor refused to offer a grape juice alternative?

There is much we don't know about life and our history.

For example, many people have never heard of the "Year with no summer (1816)" even though it was one of the great disasters of the 19th century

Dr. Mark Herzer seems to think that offering wine with communion poses no great danger. What scientific studies does he cite to prove this statement. Is he willing to pay for rehab if a reformed alcoholic stumbles?

Is anyone here willing to pay for rehab if a reformed alcoholic stumbles because of communion wine?

Pastors, if a reformed alcoholic stumbles because of communion wine, do you bear any responsibility at all? Is his own lack of self control totally to blame.

Forgive my ignorance. I have never heard of Dr. Mark Herzer. What is his track record with alcoholics. How many has he helped overcome this addiction?



(Boy, if someone tells me that Dr. Mark Herzer has dried up thousands of alcoholics and then had every one of them take communion wine with no relapse, am I ever going to look bad. I have never heard of Dr. Mark Herzer.)


Well Andrew, does this mean that in your church reformed alcoholics that humbly admit they can't handle any alcohol shall be expected to take communion with wine?

BTW Andrew, I read the article.

Mr. Mulder -- could you clarify: would you think it better to deny someone the reality of heartgladdening of a means of a grace? (I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm trying to understand the view of means of grace that seems to suggest it prudent to deny them in many cases -- celiac also? -- a practice which I always equated with church discipline.)

Heidi, as I stated above, I have not done the research, nor do I have the wisdom, to give a more succinct answer...

Sorry.

For your information though, we serve regular and gluten free bread. Also, we serve wine only. My wife has abstained from the wine in the past, simply because of contra-indication with medication she was taking at the time.

I read it Pastor Barnes. A couple comments. He says

and

I see just more of the inconsistent reasoning I referred to above. If the phrase fruit of the vine isn't meant to be ambiguous, to follow the author's reasoning, it must needs be given in the amount necessary to have it's blessing manifested. The little thimble doesn't bless anyone. Rushdoony once pointed out that drinking enough wine at the Lord's Supper to get you cheerful had been the practice of in some enclaves of the church in times past, and that would be consistent reasoning.

If someone really wants to put their foot down on the issue, then they should go all the way, rather than picking their pet little irritation and focusing in on it. Personally I'd like to see a meal once per year with plenty of wine, unleavened bread and lamb with bitter herbs afterwards, but that's just me.

And for those who would take just the bread, would you take the bread if it was leavened? Since the reason that unleavened bread was used since leaven symbolized sin? And the NT word for bread in the Gospel passages could mean either leavened or unleavened bread?

Is accommodating this man by offering a grape juice alternative that much of an imposition?

Tim, you are welcome in my place every year for Pesach. We look back at that night and see how it was fulfilled in Christ.

As do I. How is drinking more than a thimbleful of wine and only eating unleavened bread and only celebrating once per year NOT looking back at Christ? Not trying to start an argument, but I'd really like to know!

PS It's very possible that I'm misunderstanding you. Do you have a Passover type meal once per year? Sounds good!

Mr. Mulder, thanks for your kind response.

I find the discussion a bit disheartening. Some of the happiest days of my life have been communion Sundays: I've never been in churches serve wine.

Seems to me that maybe you are putting too much emphasis on science and starting from the position of sinful man instead of starting with Scripture and God and His Word. IMO this is what is implied in what you say.

The person who wrote this is of no matter, and his track record with alcoholics is not up for debate, what is is what are the elements in the Lord's Supper which HE has instituted. That is where we start not where we end. You cannot start with man, and alcoholics who are in sin, and then expect to end back up at the biblical position. That is backwards.

"Pastors, if a reformed alcoholic stumbles because of communion wine, do you bear any responsibility at all? Is his own lack of self control totally to blame."

Pastors bear the responsibility to worship according to the commands of God and to lead their flock as such.

"does this mean that in your church reformed alcoholics that humbly admit they can't handle any alcohol shall be expected to take communion with wine?"

There are no 'reformed alcoholics' within my flock. If there were, the session would meet with them and teach, rebuke, correct, and train in righteousness.

Precisely, "Such were some of you..." Do we do them any service or convey biblical truth by calling them former, reformed or redeemed anything.

All Christians are presumed repentant sinners, in the process of sanctification. All of us need by God’s grace to modify former behavior, associations and thought patterns to avoid temptations toward particular sinful tendencies. But, is anything gained by referring to a brother or sister as a “redeemed drunkard”? Is anything added by labeling such sin as a disease, “alcoholism”? Addictions are a complex of associations, physical deficits, thought patterns and predilections. Like all sinners, they must be taught the truth of God’s word, shown their own weakness and need to depend upon the grace of God to help them control sinful attachments and actions. But, churches reinforcing pseudo-scientific definitions of disease are not helpful. Nor do we continue to label believers "reformed liars," "reformed fornicators," or "reformed blasphemers."

I do not hold an advanced degree in psychology or medicine, nor did my seminary offer courses on addiction. But, I have read a little concerning the disease theory of alcoholism, which seems to have been debunked by placebo studies: G. Alan Marlatt and Damaris J. Rohsenow, “The Think-Drink Effect,” Psychology Today, December 1981, pp. 60-69, 93; Barbara Critchlow, “The Powers of John Barleycorn: Beliefs about the Effects of Alcohol on Social Behavior,” American Psychologisit, Vol. 41 (1986) pp. 751-64. Concerning response to Alcohol as a learned reaction: Craig McAndrew and Robert Edgerton, Drunken Comportment (Chicago, 1969) pp. 87-88.

I agree with the opinion of communion being improperly administered in a mens meeting if that is truly the case. It should be served in a church service by an ordained officer of the church and accompanied by the preaching of the Word.

Secondly, if this is the consensus, then by way of compassion, being unaware of who are all in attendance, would it, for the sake of consistency, be proper then to go all grape juice for service so as not to risk jeopardizing a repentant alcoholics spiritual condition?
Just asking.

__________________
Michael P Doyle
Waukesha WI
Member of http://www.cornerstone-pca.com/
Attending http://www.lampseminary.org/

Yes, each year we have a passover meal

Andrew you stated,"Seems to me that maybe you are putting too much emphasis on science and starting from the position of sinful man instead of starting with Scripture and God and His Word. IMO this is what is implied in what you say."

Andrew, my reading of Scripture tells me I must be very very careful not to cause a brother to stumble.

Science tells me that even a little bit of alcohol can cause a brother to stumble. (If my science is wrong, please quote a licensed doctor who asserts that communion wine is always not dangerous for reformed alcoholics who cry at the thought of injesting communion wine.)

Therefore, Scripture and science suggest that if a brother cries for fear of communion wine, perhaps I should not offer communion wine.



Andrew you stated, "The person who wrote this is of no matter, and his track record with alcoholics is not up for debate"

Andrew I respectfully disagree. If he is making assertions on church history and a problem like alcoholism and further asserts that communion wine poses little danger to former alcoholics, his credentials are crucial. In essense, you have posted something online which purports that communion wine is not dangerous to reformed alcoholics. This has medical ramifications.

Your church may have no alcoholics, but alcoholism is quite widespread. His assertions -if wrong- can help a brother to stumble. Your decision, as a leader in the church, to further quote as truth online his work has ramifications on weaker brothers.



Andrew you stated," Pastors bear the responsibility to worship according to the commands of God and to lead their flock as such."

Andrew, I think pastors should also know the weaknesses of people in their flock where possible and accommodate if possible.



Andrew you stated, "There are no 'reformed alcoholics' within my flock."

Andrew, how big is your flock? Are you sure there are no reformed alcoholics? Do you know how much shame is attached to alcoholism and its ramifications? How well do you know your flock? Have any ever been abused? Have any got an addiction to painkillers, p0rn0graphy, gossip, TV....

I know someone who has been a trained Christian counsellor for years, and she doesn't assume she knows people. The heart is desperately wicked, who can know it.

I have absolutely no problem with a session deciding to offer unfermented grape juice as an option at communion for those with medical, conscientious, or allergy concerns, though I’m not convinced such is necessary without a specific request from a member. The congregation I serve offers both; I’ve made no attempt to change this.

My concern is with changing the elements of communion based upon an unbiblical understanding of sin and addiction. If our practice and theology are controlled by prevailing opinion rather than scripture, drunkenness becomes a disease rather than sin; sodomy becomes neither sin nor a disease, but an amoral orientation.

Alcoholism (the disease) was unknown and unheard of before the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1935, upon unbiblical principles. With no scientific evidence to indicate such, the disease theory was adopted because it was easier to persuade potential recruits they were “powerless over alcohol” than of moral failing. The National Council for Education on Alcoholism was founded, which promoted the disease model in the late 40's and 50's. The brewing and distilling industries liked the theory because it did not blame them for harm caused. The medical community found it justified insurance payment for treatment.

The church is warranted to teach what may be established in the word of God and no more. While we should respond pastorally to those who suffer, even if partially caused by a misleading “theory,” we must not promote a politically correct prevailing opinion as equivalent to God’s revealed truth.

I'm sorry Glenn, I had trouble understanding your post.

I'm not trying to "promote a politically correct prevailing opinion as equivalent to God’s revealed truth."

I just believe that if a reformed alcoholic cries for fear at the thought of communion wine than maybe church leaders should comfort him and offer grape juice.

Personally, I know little about "politically correct prevailing opinion." I am a nerd.

What I do know is that alcohol - especially a bottle of cold beer on a hot day - can be very good.

I also know that alcohol - especially for a weaker brother - can be very bad.

I also know that helping prevent a brother from stumbling is crucial. And dare I say maybe even more crucial than replicating Jesus's Last Supper to a tee - at least physically.

Serving grape juice might miss all the physical aspects of the Last Supper, but may fulfill all its spiritual aspects.

And what does the Lord expect of you? To act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with the Lord.