Help Regarding Sabbath

TaylorOtwell · #1 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:19 PM

Hi friends,

I have learned more and more about the Reformed perspective over the past year or so. However, one thing I am currently wrestling with is the issue of the Sabbath.

I understand and agree that the Lord's Day was the traditional and accepted meeting time for the early church. However, I don't understand how many of the Jewish Sabbath stipulations got moved to this day, or where Scripture indicates that they did.

What Biblical evidence do we have that would support the view that Jewish Sabbath stipulations carried over onto the Lord's Day?

The position I am more familiar with is a New Covenant Theology position that states that there is no distinction between moral/ceremonial/civil law and that the entire law of Moses is abrogated in the life of the believer. Therefore, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles are binding on the believer. In other words, this position does not equate the Ten Commandments with the immutable, absolute moral law of God.

What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.

AV1611 · #2 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.

I would suggest:

1.

On the First Day of the Week: God, the Christian...
2. The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath

KMK · #3 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:35 PM

AW Pink "The Christian Sabbath" available here: http://members.aol.com/gregscv/sabbath.htm

Blueridge Baptist · #4 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

AW Pink "The Christian Sabbath" available here: THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH

This was the book that pushed me over the edge. You can read it in less than an hour.

larryjf · #5 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

The position I am more familiar with is a New Covenant Theology position that states that there is no distinction between moral/ceremonial/civil law and that the entire law of Moses is abrogated in the life of the believer. Therefore, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles are binding on the believer. In other words, this position does not equate the Ten Commandments with the immutable, absolute moral law of God.

If there is no distinction between the ceremonial, civil, and moral law, why were only the priests permitted to perform the ceremonial law...why were the kings in charge of the civil law...why was everyone under the moral law?

How far is this belief of no more law outside of the NT taken?

Do we allow our daughters to be prostitutes because the NT doesn't forbid it (Lev 19:29)?

Is it o.k. to cut ourselves for the dead (Lev 19:28)?

Is rape o.k. (Deu 22:25)?

TaylorOtwell · #6 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryjf

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

The position I am more familiar with is a New Covenant Theology position that states that there is no distinction between moral/ceremonial/civil law and that the entire law of Moses is abrogated in the life of the believer. Therefore, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles are binding on the believer. In other words, this position does not equate the Ten Commandments with the immutable, absolute moral law of God.

If there is no distinction between the ceremonial, civil, and moral law, why were only the priests permitted to perform the ceremonial law...why were the kings in charge of the civil law...why was everyone under the moral law?

How far is this belief of no more law outside of the NT taken?

Do we allow our daughters to be prostitutes because the NT doesn't forbid it (Lev 19:29)?

Is it o.k. to cut ourselves for the dead (Lev 19:28)?

Is rape o.k. (Deu 22:25)?

The typical response I think you would receive would be that commands regarding adultery are given in the New Covenant Scripture. Similarly, we know that cutting ourselves for the dead has no bearing on their eternal state because no man comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ.

Thank you all for your responses, I plan to read through that Pink article.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #7 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.

I would suggest:

1.

On the First Day of the Week: God, the Christian...
2. The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath

Good choices I would also recommend Joey Pipa's Book, The Lord's Day

larryjf · #8 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryjf

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

The position I am more familiar with is a New Covenant Theology position that states that there is no distinction between moral/ceremonial/civil law and that the entire law of Moses is abrogated in the life of the believer. Therefore, only the commandments of Christ and His Apostles are binding on the believer. In other words, this position does not equate the Ten Commandments with the immutable, absolute moral law of God.

If there is no distinction between the ceremonial, civil, and moral law, why were only the priests permitted to perform the ceremonial law...why were the kings in charge of the civil law...why was everyone under the moral law?

How far is this belief of no more law outside of the NT taken?

Do we allow our daughters to be prostitutes because the NT doesn't forbid it (Lev 19:29)?

Is it o.k. to cut ourselves for the dead (Lev 19:28)?

Is rape o.k. (Deu 22:25)?

The typical response I think you would receive would be that commands regarding adultery are given in the New Covenant Scripture. Similarly, we know that cutting ourselves for the dead has no bearing on their eternal state because no man comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ.

Thank you all for your responses, I plan to read through that Pink article.

I thought that prostitution was different from adultery.

Also, the NT does teach that the Sabbath was indeed made for man...in other words for man to observe (Mark 2:27).

VirginiaHuguenot · #9 (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.

You may wish to study the teaching of the Westminster Confession and Larger Catechism on this subject and the scriptures they cite in support of this doctrine.

WCF 19:

Quote:

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.a

a. Gen 1:26-27 with 2:17; Job 28:28; Eccl 7:29; Rom 2:14-15; 5:12, 19; 10:5; Gal 3:10, 12.

2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables;a the first four commandments containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to man.b

a. Exod 34:1; Deut 5:32; 10:4; Rom 13:8-9; James 1:25; 2:8, 10-12. • b. Mat 22:37-40.

3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a Church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;a and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.b All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated under the New Testament.c

a. Gal 4:1-3; Col 2:17; Heb 9 throughout; 10:1. • b. 1 Cor 5:7; 2 Cor 6:17; Jude 1:23. • c. Dan 9:27; Eph 2:15-16; Col 2:14, 16-17.

5. The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;a and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it.b Neither doth Christ in the gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.c

a. Rom 13:8-10; Eph 6:2; 1 John 2:3-4, 7-8. • b. James 2:10-11. • c. Mat 5:17-19; Rom 3:31; James 2:8.

WLC:

Quote:

Q93: What is the moral law?
A93: The moral law is the declaration of the will of God to mankind, directing and binding everyone to personal, perfect, and perpetual conformity and obedience thereunto, in the frame and disposition of the whole man, soul and body,[1] and in performance of all those duties of holiness and righteousness which he oweth to God and man:[2] promising life upon the fulfilling, and threatening death upon the breach of it.[3]

1. Deut. 5:1-3, 31, 33; Luke 10:26-27; Gal. 3:10; I Thess. 5:23
2. Luke 1:75; Acts 14:16
3. Rom. 10:5; Gal. 3:10, 12

Q98: Where is the moral law summarily comprehended?
A98: The moral law is summarily comprehended in the ten commandments, which were delivered by the voice of God upon mount Sinai, and written by him in two tables of stone;[1] and are recorded in the twentieth chapter of Exodus. The four first commandments containing our duty to God, and the other six our duty to man.[2]

1. Deut. 10:4; Exod. 34:1-4
2. Matt. 22:37-38, 40

Q99: What rules are to be observed for the right understanding of the ten commandments?
A99: For the right understanding of the ten commandments, these rules are to be observed:
1. That the law is perfect, and bindeth everyone to full conformity in the whole man unto the righteousness thereof, and unto entire obedience forever; so as to require the utmost perfection of every duty, and to forbid the least degree of every sin.[1]
2. That it is spiritual, and so reaches the understanding, will, affections, and all other powers of the soul; as well as words, works, and gestures.[2]
3. That one and the same thing, in divers respects, is required or forbidden in several commandments.[3]
4. That as, where a duty is commanded, the contrary sin is forbidden;[4] and, where a sin is forbidden, the contrary duty is commanded:[5] so, where a promise is annexed, the contrary threatening is included;[6] and, where a threatening is annexed, the contrary promise is included.[7]
5. That what God forbids, is at no time to be done;[8] What he commands, is always our duty;[9] and yet every particular duty is not to be done at all times.[10]
6. That under one sin or duty, all of the same kind are forbidden or commanded; together with all the causes, means, occasions, and appearances thereof, and provocations thereunto.[11]
7. That what is forbidden or commanded to ourselves, we are bound, according to our places, to endeavor that it may be avoided or performed by others, according to the duty of their places.[12]
8. That in what is commanded to others, we are bound, according to our places and callings, to be helpful to them;[13] and to take heed of partaking with others in: What is forbidden them.[14]

1. Psa. 19:7; James 2:10; Matt. 5:21-22
2. Rom. 7:14; Deut. 6:5; Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28, 33-34, 37-39, 43-44; 22:37-39
3. Col. 3:5; Amos 8:5; Prov. 1:19; I Tim. 6:10
4. Isa. 58:13; Deut. 6:13; Matt. 4:9-10; 15:4-6
5. Matt. 5:21-25; Eph. 4:28
6. Exod. 20:12; Prov. 30:17
7. Jer. 18:7-8; Exod. 20:7; Psa. 15:1, 4-5; 24:4-5
8. Job. 13:7; 36:21; Rom. 3:8; Heb. 11:25
9. Deut. 4:8-9
10. Matt. 12:7
11. Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28; 15:4-6; Heb. 10:24-25; I Thess. 5:22-23; Gal. 5:26; Col. 3:21
12. Exod. 20:10; Lev. 19:17; Gen. 18:19; Josh. 24:15; Deut. 6:6-7
13. II Cor. 1:24
14. I Tim. 5:22

Southern Presbyterian · #10 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.

I would suggest:

1.

On the First Day of the Week: God, the Christian...
2. The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath

Good choices I would also recommend Joey Pipa's Book, The Lord's Day

Grymir · #11 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 12:49 AM

Hi Taylor! I was intrigued by your opening post. I noticed on your bio that you say you were converted as a sophomore in college, and attend a PCA church. I hope that what you said isn't being taught in a PCA church, so I was wondering, is this something you pick up elsewhere (if so, where?), or is this something that a friend is asking you about(also, if so, where did he get it?) This is an interesting view, and I can't quit put my finger on which denomination or church teaches this. I interact with alot of people in the world, so I hear all kinds of things. And got curious.

In one sense, Jesus did fulfill all of the moral/ceremonial/civil law and applied it to us when we 'got saved', but the 10 commandments spells out what sin is and is a guide to Christian living. (The book of Romans does a good job at explaining this).

Thanks for any input - Grymir

Beoga · #12 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaylorOtwell

What evidence do we have that demonstrates that the Ten Commandments are that absolute moral law of God; therefore, binding on all people everywhere for all time.

I would suggest:

1.

On the First Day of the Week: God, the Christian...
2. The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath

Good choices I would also recommend Joey Pipa's Book, The Lord's Day

I recently purchased this book and started skimming through it today. It looked pretty good. My one beef with the book is that I spent more on shipping than on the book itself

..

A5pointer · #13 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grymir

Hi Taylor! I was intrigued by your opening post. I noticed on your bio that you say you were converted as a sophomore in college, and attend a PCA church. I hope that what you said isn't being taught in a PCA church, so I was wondering, is this something you pick up elsewhere (if so, where?), or is this something that a friend is asking you about(also, if so, where did he get it?) This is an interesting view, and I can't quit put my finger on which denomination or church teaches this. I interact with alot of people in the world, so I hear all kinds of things. And got curious.

In one sense, Jesus did fulfill all of the moral/ceremonial/civil law and applied it to us when we 'got saved', but the 10 commandments spells out what sin is and is a guide to Christian living. (The book of Romans does a good job at explaining this).

Thanks for any input - Grymir

Reformed Baptists

JonathanHunt · #14 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grymir

Hi Taylor! I was intrigued by your opening post. I noticed on your bio that you say you were converted as a sophomore in college, and attend a PCA church. I hope that what you said isn't being taught in a PCA church, so I was wondering, is this something you pick up elsewhere (if so, where?), or is this something that a friend is asking you about(also, if so, where did he get it?) This is an interesting view, and I can't quit put my finger on which denomination or church teaches this. I interact with alot of people in the world, so I hear all kinds of things. And got curious.

In one sense, Jesus did fulfill all of the moral/ceremonial/civil law and applied it to us when we 'got saved', but the 10 commandments spells out what sin is and is a guide to Christian living. (The book of Romans does a good job at explaining this).

Thanks for any input - Grymir

Reformed Baptists

Er... no. That is just a broad brush sweep. Being a reformed baptist does not make you an adherent of New Covenant Theology (NCT). I am certainly still convinced that the Ten Commandments stand.

JH

A5pointer · #15 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grymir

Hi Taylor! I was intrigued by your opening post. I noticed on your bio that you say you were converted as a sophomore in college, and attend a PCA church. I hope that what you said isn't being taught in a PCA church, so I was wondering, is this something you pick up elsewhere (if so, where?), or is this something that a friend is asking you about(also, if so, where did he get it?) This is an interesting view, and I can't quit put my finger on which denomination or church teaches this. I interact with alot of people in the world, so I hear all kinds of things. And got curious.

In one sense, Jesus did fulfill all of the moral/ceremonial/civil law and applied it to us when we 'got saved', but the 10 commandments spells out what sin is and is a guide to Christian living. (The book of Romans does a good job at explaining this).

Thanks for any input - Grymir

Reformed Baptists

Er... no. That is just a broad brush sweep. Being a reformed baptist does not make you an adherent of New Covenant Theology (NCT). I am certainly still convinced that the Ten Commandments stand.

JH

Sorry didn't mean to broadbrush. He asked where can it be taught? I know some of it is coming from Reformed Baptists. I have no idea what percentage it would be.

KMK · #16 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Reformed Baptists

Er... no. That is just a broad brush sweep. Being a reformed baptist does not make you an adherent of New Covenant Theology (NCT). I am certainly still convinced that the Ten Commandments stand.

JH

Sorry didn't mean to broadbrush. He asked where can it be taught? I know some of it is coming from Reformed Baptists. I have no idea what percentage it would be.

How can a Baptist call himself 'Reformed' and yet adhere to NCT? If he is 'reformed' he must adhere to the LBC II, no? Perhaps the folks you are thinking of are 'calvanistic' but not reformed.

Blueridge Baptist · #17 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 09:00 AM

It comes from some Calvinistic baptists, indy fundy and arminian Southern baptists. It does not come from 1689 confessional baptists.

A5pointer · #18 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

It comes from some Calvinistic baptists, indy fundy and arminian Southern baptists. It does not come from 1689 confessional baptists.

What does D.A. Carson call himself? Am I wrong thinking he is sypathetic to the view?