Do you believe the bible knows of a "head/heart dichotomy?" Can a person miss heaven by 12 inches (belief in the gospel in the head, but not in the heart)?. Why or why not? If there is a distinction, what is the definition of "heart?"

Most people take it for granted that there is such a distinction biblically, but Gordon Clark makes a compelling case in "Faith and Saving Faith."

I have my own opinions on the subject, but I would like to hear what others have to say. (Forgive me if this has already been discussed - I did a search and could come up with nothing)

Thanks

__________________
Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

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***Do you believe the bible knows of a "head/heart dichotomy?***

You could be full of head knowledge,know more than the average true christian and yet be an unregenerate.Head knowledge does not imply salvation .

"They call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel" Isa. 48:2.

This sounds like saving faith does it not? God however said of the same people,

"Thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass" Isa. 48:4.

andreas.

__________________
andreas; By the grace of God,a Christian .

[font=symbol]
ean gar kai poreuqw en mesw skias qanatou ou fobhqhsomai kaka oti su met¢ emou ei h rabdos sou kai h bakthria sou autai me parekalesan [/font]
Psalm 23:4

Andreas-

What exactly do you mean by "head knowledge"? Is there also "heart knowledge"?

Erin

[Edited on 3-16-2005 by MissSolaFide]

__________________
Erin Bartel
Blessed Wife of Jeffrey
Trinity Reformed Church, RPCNA
Wichita, KS

I don't think a person can miss heaven simply by being too intellectual. We can miss it by unbelief, which can mask as hyper-intellectualism among other things.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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Is this to say that a certian level of emotionalism is necessary to be truly saved? If so how much is enough? We are saved by grace through faith and our nature changes, the old is gone behold the new is come, how much of a change is enough? Does the appropriate level of "heart knowledge come instantaneously or over time? Isn't that "heart knowledge also a gift of God? Then does God give everyone a certian quanity of "heart knowledge" or is it different for everyone? What role does the Holy Spirit play in the aquisition of "heart knowledge? Just curious.

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How often have you wondered why Christ should set His heart upon such a one as you! --Octavius Winslow

Lon Wadkins (Jesup, Iowa)
New Covenant Fellowship, OPC
Independence, Iowa

A better way to explain the situation is using proper theological catagories.....

Faith is comprised of three parts: knowledge; agreement; trust.

True faith must have knowledge of something/someone first. (It is NOT blind.) Then based upon that knowledge the attitude of agreement (or disagreement) - then based upon both of these, a complete trust in the former.

The so called "head knowledge" idea is really describing a person who has the right knowledge; even agrees with the knowledge -- but at the end of the day does not trust Christ.

Some characters in the Bible/NT exhibiting this were: Judas; Pharisees; the demons.

The Bible doesn't divide head/heart....but it does teach saving faith and false faith as above.



Robin

__________________
Robin
URCNA
Heidelberg, Ursinus, Belgic Confessions; Canons of Dordt
Revelation 14:2

I see nothing in the Bible about a Head/Heart dichotomy regarding salvation. This type of thinking is rampant in the broad evangelical world. I think it is a by product of revivalism where a profession was not good enough. You needed a conversion experience to prove that you accepted Christ into your heart. Scripture tells us that if you confess with you mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that he rose from the dead you are saved (Rom 10:9-10). But who really knows the heart of any man except that man (1 Cor 2)?

__________________
~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

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Can you be said to agree to the knowledge without faith?

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How often have you wondered why Christ should set His heart upon such a one as you! --Octavius Winslow

Lon Wadkins (Jesup, Iowa)
New Covenant Fellowship, OPC
Independence, Iowa

I think that Jeff's question is about the distinction between "head knowledge" and "heart knowledge". If you know something "in your head" but not "in your heart" are you waiting for your emotions to align with what's in your head? Is it assurance? Is it agreement? I've heard people argue each of these.

If you believe something with your heart, soul, mind, and strength do you have 4 different kinds of knowledge? I would say that those 4 things are the same, & that there is only one kind of "knowledge" (and, thus, no head/heart dichotomy).

[Edited on 3-16-2005 by MissSolaFide]

[Edited on 3-16-2005 by MissSolaFide]

__________________
Erin Bartel
Blessed Wife of Jeffrey
Trinity Reformed Church, RPCNA
Wichita, KS

Robin, great point. I was actually thinking of one of those examples while reading this thread myself:

Mat 8:29 And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"

Mar 5:7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me."

The demons sure acknowledged who Jesus was, and said something "flattering" in a way. They called Him "Son of God' and "Jesus, Son of the Most High God", but sure had not made the profession of faith, though they knew who He was.


Agree with the poster that mentioned Rom 10:9
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

__________________
Beth Montgomery
Wife to Steve,mom of Benjamin and John, Graduate Whitefield Theological Seminary



Blog: Journeying for Him

Tolle Lege, Tolle Lege!

I believe this concept determines those who can recite every orthodox belief. Every confession. Those that will fight savagely for their faith. The problem rests in their hypocrisy. They are whitewashed Sephlecures. Rotten on the inside. They will read everything but it does nothing for their walk. They show no love of Christ. They show no meekness and lowliness of heart as our Master. They have self appointed themselves as the watchmen on the wall and will seperate the sheep and goats for Christ. But yet they are only concerned with the outward ceremonies. Attend church 2-4 times per week. Will correct every error that they believe is wrong. They listen to every sermon then bring out the flea comb and disect it. But on the inside they are rotten and not born again.




In His Grace


Joseph

[Edited on 3-16-2005 by The Lamb]

My question is not regarding true belivers to mere professors. My question is more regarding some who believe that you can actually believe the gospel in your head, but if you don't believe it in your heart, it's all worthless. To these people, I would ask, are there two kinds of beliefs? What is the difference? The only things that that James mentions that demons believe is the fact that God is one.

A verse that touches on this subject, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." Is this different than thinking in your mind/head?

__________________
Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

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there is not such as thing as head/heart - but there is a difference between mental assent and saving faith.

One can know the gospel and mentally agree with it, but that is not the same as believing it to be true and therefore obeying it and trusting Christ.

Think of it this way, what you believe affects how you act. If you calim to believe something but don't behave like you believe it, then you really don't believe it! You may agree with a collection of facts, but you do not believe.

Example: in which scenario will you run faster?

A. A bear is chasing you through the woods.

B. You believe a bear is chasing you through the woods.

Either way, you will run just as fast, because what you believe influences how you behave.

Phillip

__________________
Pastor Phillip M. Way
[url=http://www.timeintheword.org][color=blue] Maranatha Community Church of Central Texas[/color][/url]
A Reformed Baptist Congregation and Member Church of the
Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals [url=http://www.firefellowship.org][color=red](FIRE)[/color][/url]

Blogging at: [url=http://pastorway.blogspot.com/][color=blue][i]pastorway[/i][/color][/url]
Sermons Online at: [url=http://www.sermonaudio.com/timeintheword][color=blue]TIME in the Word Ministries[/color][/url]

When all souls are saved and all mourners comforted we may venture to discuss recondite theories, but not while graveyards are filling with those who know not God. -- CH Spurgeon

[b]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:27[/b]

First, you've got these verses yanked out of their context. Oops - that's going to mess you up! However, the Proverbs verse is relevent in the sense that if a person professes Christ - they will act like the profession is true. Good works will follow because they are already regenerate - not because they wish to earn salvation.

Second - keep in mind that the ancient Jewish idea of "heart" when it's in Scripture refers to a total combination of mind-will-attitude-heart-bowels as being that "center" of oneself - where deep conviction resides. It's not the romantic/sentimental/sappy 19th Century European idea of "heart."

Warning...read large portions of Scripture, in context-topically. Don't chop-out verses and assemble them to fit your question.



Robin

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Robin
URCNA
Heidelberg, Ursinus, Belgic Confessions; Canons of Dordt
Revelation 14:2

***What exactly do you mean by "head knowledge"? Is there also "heart knowledge"?***

I can study music for years,get a doctorate degree,become a professor,but that does not make me a musician.

andreas.

__________________
andreas; By the grace of God,a Christian .

[font=symbol]
ean gar kai poreuqw en mesw skias qanatou ou fobhqhsomai kaka oti su met¢ emou ei h rabdos sou kai h bakthria sou autai me parekalesan [/font]
Psalm 23:4

Yes, it can...the Jews did it...they stumbled over the cornerstone because they did not combine their hearing the Gospel with faith (trust.)

R.

__________________
Robin
URCNA
Heidelberg, Ursinus, Belgic Confessions; Canons of Dordt
Revelation 14:2

Robin,

With all due respect, I have read the scripture in context, and was simply using it to pose a question, nothing more. I wasn't using it to advocate a side or promote a doctrinal position.

__________________
Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

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It seems in this thread that EVERYBODY has had something very useful to input, so I'll skip the "ditto's" and "amen's".

What I find when people talk about these things in two separate categories is that they're really just using figures of speech and not really refering to "categories" of knowledge.

The "head knowledge" group, for example liberal theologians or even atheists who KNOW the content of the Bible and even of the Gospel, but don't BELIEVE it, are very capable of elaborating on the doctrine of Christ, or of faith, or the Trinity, etc.

Now it seems that the label of having "head knowledge" is often used as a derogatory label towards those who in any way want to defend doctrine against the errors of the super-emotional/romantic individuals who "just want to love Jesus and get along." The value put on "thought" these days is so low (unfortunately, especially in the Christian community) that anyone to whom the "head knowledge" label is applied is automatically thought to be lower than the "heart knowledge" individual. Kind of like a queen beats a rook in Chess.

However, if and when WE are accused of having "head knowledge not heart knowledge" perhaps we too easily and quickly dismiss it without introspection into what our accusers may see in us. I can't remember who said it but someone talked about how in a way "our enemies can be our friends" because of the way they can point out in us what we ourselves are blind to.

But usually I think the case is simply that the unthinking and unlearned want a quick "no-thought" reply to an argument posed to them and so they throw out the ad-hominem to you thinking they have satisfied any obligation of further thought.

My

__________________
Christopher Hinton
Northland, A Church Distributed;
Altamonte Springs, FL

Christopher!


Robin

__________________
Robin
URCNA
Heidelberg, Ursinus, Belgic Confessions; Canons of Dordt
Revelation 14:2

"Play the sunset...Playing music is supposed to be fun. It's about heart, it's about feelings, moving people, and something beautiful, and it's not about notes on a page. I can teach you notes on a page, I can't teach you that other stuff." -- Glenn Holland, Mr. Holland's Opus

__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

This idea of "heart" seems to be defined as more "emotions" or "feelings." It seems that many define the heart this way when speaking of doctrines. It seems somewhat difficult to interpret "heart" this way in scripture in my opinion.

Love the Lord thy God with all thy mind, heart [emotion?], soul and strength.

__________________
Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Heart can also mean spirit correct?

This is where the distinction is made. One can have knowledge of mental assent without having the epignosis, paul speaks about which permeates the whole spirit.

Heart as it is used throughout Scripture is not heart as we think of it today. Today we do think emotions - but that is covered in loving God with all your soul .

The heart in the Bible, often translated in the past as "bowels", is the inner man, the real you deep down inside.

Phillip

__________________
Pastor Phillip M. Way
[url=http://www.timeintheword.org][color=blue] Maranatha Community Church of Central Texas[/color][/url]
A Reformed Baptist Congregation and Member Church of the
Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals [url=http://www.firefellowship.org][color=red](FIRE)[/color][/url]

Blogging at: [url=http://pastorway.blogspot.com/][color=blue][i]pastorway[/i][/color][/url]
Sermons Online at: [url=http://www.sermonaudio.com/timeintheword][color=blue]TIME in the Word Ministries[/color][/url]

When all souls are saved and all mourners comforted we may venture to discuss recondite theories, but not while graveyards are filling with those who know not God. -- CH Spurgeon

[b]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:27[/b]

Food will bring strength and comfort to the heart ,Gen. 18: 5; Judges 19: 5, 8, and excess affects the heart unfavorably Luke 21: 34.
The heart is the center of personal life in all its relations Prov. 4: 23; and consequently, kardia, psyche, and pneuma, "spirit," may be used as synonyms, and joy, sorrow, emotion, is ascribed to the heart Prov. 12: 25 or to the soul .
andreas.

__________________
andreas; By the grace of God,a Christian .

[font=symbol]
ean gar kai poreuqw en mesw skias qanatou ou fobhqhsomai kaka oti su met¢ emou ei h rabdos sou kai h bakthria sou autai me parekalesan [/font]
Psalm 23:4