I am not sure if I have picked this up wrong, but it would appear from what I have come across that Clarkians define saving faith as merely assent. Is this correct?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I doubt that they would use the word "merely", they would (in my undersatanding) say that assent to such a proposition is in some ways earth shattering, but it is an understanding that with God's help man is capable of.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

So they do define faith as assent then?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

This has been discussed before.
John Robbins Denounces Experiential Calvinism
What do the Confessions testify of concerning Saving or Justifying Faith?
Unsaving Faith

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

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Thanks Chris; but I am just looking for a straight answer. I found those posts confusing.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Then you know this is not uncontroversial. The moderators will be all over this thread like a duck on a June bug if things get out of hand. Word to the wise.

__________________
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

Okay, I see what you mean. In a word is faith defined as assent in a Clarkian view?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Actually, I just read that thread on "unsaving faith" which pretty much answers the question.

The reason I asked is pastoral. My late grandfather (on my dad's side) was a man who had historical faith (believed the gospel was true intellectually), but who preferred the pleasures of sin to Christ and holiness. If Clarkian views were to be accepted, then I would have to conclude that such a man was saved just because he gave mental assent to the truth.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

The Clarkians would say that assent to saving faith would be evidenced by works, just because soemone says that they assent to saving faith does not mean that they do. If peopel contine in unrepentant sin who can they truly have assented to the gospel?

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

But if he gives assent, then, on that view surely, he must be saved?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Daniel, I don't think so. Check out Lane's post: John Robbins Denounces Experiential Calvinism

Clark's formulation had its problems because it can be easily misunderstood (and therefore can be misleading). Other people don't use language the way he did. I think it causes problems, but I don't think he stands for mere assent to the facts as leading to salvation. The assent has to extend to believing the facts apply to me.

I know the feeling well. For more than 40 years I believed that the facts in the Bible were true. But I didn't think they applied to me. The facts were true things that were good for other people, but I could go my way quite happily.

It's madness, really. I knew I wasn't saved and I was comfortable with it.

Praise God he turned my mind to understand the last link, that I had to believe the facts of the Gospel applied to me. At that point I can say I actually trusted them. It's not a term Clark would use because he doesn't want to make it look like effort on our part. But the end result is just that.

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R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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Incidentally, I've had some milder Clarkians note that Clark's definition of faith is different than some of the more modern expressions of Clarkian thought are.

They typically subsume fiducia within assensus, arguing that fiducia is a redundant term and that real assent includes trust. It's when you combine the notions that the only kind of true knowledge is propositional (i.e. the identity of my mother or that the sky is blue is only an opinion) and this "two-part" faith schema that the real problems emerge.

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Rich
Northern VA
OPC

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Cross-posting. Thanks for weighing in with this.

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
OPC

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