Now excuse me as this is my first "real" thread and I did not take the time to search for anything regarding this, but I would care to ask the question:

Does God hate unrepentant sinners?

My answer resides as yes.
This is why:

What does God hate?
Wickedness
Sin
Those who perform iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)
(I am assuming) The suppression of truth and His righteousness (Romans 1)

Now, what do unrepentant sinners do?:
Wickedness
Sin
All things against God
Iniquity
Suppress the truth and His righteousness.

Furthermore:
What more is there for God to live in the individual? What good is there to an unrepentant sinner? Absolutely nothing, nothing but wickedness and everything God hates. What can God possibly personally love towards a person who is nothing short of everything He hates?

For purpose of my arguments, as I see that I am perhaps the youngest poster on this forum, you all seem to be in seminary and college and far wiser and intelligent than me. I suppose I don't have to bring up the Greek text of John 3:16 which is only a demonstration of God's love towards ill deserving sinners such as you and me, and the same goes for Romans 5:8.

I have never seen a verse in the Bible suggesting God has a personal love for unrepentant sinners.

And this "hatred" I am attempting to debate is not one of our comprehension for any such hatred would be pure, perfect, righteous, and just in every way beyond ways our fallible, sinful selves and comprehend.

Thoughts?

__________________
Jakob (But you can call me Jake if you like)
Pastor in Training
Reformed Baptist
Missouri

Common Grace anyone?

__________________
"I thank Thee that many of my prayers have been refused. I have asked amiss and do not have, I have prayed from lusts and been rejected, I have longed for Egypt and been given a wilderness".-Unknown

Julio, Amaya
Clifton, NewJersey
Reformed Baptist Church of North Bergen

God does hate the reprobate, and He is angry with the wicked everyday. What we must be careful about, however, is that we are commanded to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us, et al. God's hatred is a perfect, holy, and just hatred. Ours, on the other hand, is not because it is tainted by our own pride, self-righteousness, and sinfulness.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

If, by Common Grace, you mean that God brings rain on the just and the unjust alike, that He grants temporal gifts to the reprobate as well as the elect, so on and so forth, I can agree with you (though I wouldn't call it grace). However, all of those "gifts" simply serve to fit the reprobate for destruction and make them all the riper for judgment. So I believe Common Grace is an insufficient term to describe the temporal "good things of the earth" God gives to all creatures made in His image.

If you're interested, there's a very good article that touches upon this briefly by our very own Rev. Winzer (armourbearer):

Is there a Free Offer or just a command to repent and believe.

Touche....

Thanks, Josh

__________________
Norm
IA PCA

In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5

Lest I misrepresent, however, there are many Reformed folk who would disagree with the above assessment. It's not a monolithic position among the Reformed Faith over years passed.

Do these "gifts" not come from the grace of God?

For the Elect? Sure. I'm not sure how they can be classified as "grace," though, toward the Reprobate, when said gifts are merely hardening the reprobate further, making them ready for destruction. Grace, defined biblically, is not common in its nature, but specific. Special. Salvific.

Would one of you mind defining what you mean by "common grace?"
Common grace in my mind has always been the grace that allows us to live, breathe, laugh, and keep us from hell.
Essentially, common grace is attributed towards all men and is everything short of hell for us.

Is this the definition we are going by or is there a deeper understanding and meaning for this?

I can't adequately define the term common grace because I don't believe grace's application is referred to as common in scripture.

I suppose perhaps not by name, but to evaluate:

What lets us breathe? God's grace
What lets us live? God's grace
Why do we have food? God's grace.

Essentially all things we have are found as being as a gift of God which can be considered an act of grace, displayed towards all people.

Whereas we have saving grace which would include God's electing grace, financial, persevering, justifying, glorifying and so forth.

Do you understand the point I am attempting to make?

Who's us? The Elect or the Reprobate? It's a different answer for each group.

For the elect, these things are God's temporal gifts and comforts, or his longsuffering toward them before He brings them to salvation. For the reprobate, these things serve as a hardening and ripening exercise fitting them unto destruction (Rom. 9).

Well I suppose the "us" would include everyone.
I consider all these things regardless as to whom they are for, an act of grace towards all people whether for hardening and ripening or for temporal gifts and comforts as you put it.

My opinion is that regardless of whom they are for, they are a gracious gift which we still receive even though we are sinners. I consider that even despite our sin and suppression of God's truth He still provides for such things which is in my mind an act of grace. Which will ultimately for the reprobate only prolong their life until judgment, or for the elect as a gift of grace and love and mercy from God which we don't deserve that we might enjoy God for being so gracious in providing them.

Well the controversial one will answer, because well I'm feeling controversial. I don't think God hates the reprobate

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

Hard to argue that Scripturally...

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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I much prefer the simple term "Providence" as God acts in time and space to effect His decrees - and for some that means they get rain (both just and unjust) and for others, drought (both just and unjust). For the just, timely rain very well may spring forth from God's gracious love to them - for the unjust, timely rain is, well, as Josh put it, hardly to be termed "grace" if what it does is harden them in their self-sufficiency and arrogant pride. Always, though, it is God's Providential working of His Will.

Well, Jake, I for one do not believe there is such a thing as "common grace." I believe God's grace is particular in nature, always salvific, and only applied to His elect sons of God and never to the reprobates of the world.

What many call "grace," such as earthly blessings and divine patience with wickedness, is not "grace" but Godly providence.

God is a good God and providentially bestows earthly blessing amongst many in order to pursue and fulfill His own purposes and intents.

But GRACE is the receiving of covenant blessings, promised to the spiritual seed amongst mankind, alone. Only those chosen and elect in Jesus Christ ever truly know the saving grace of God.

Jim

__________________
Jim Rush
Elder, Church Of The Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California

TeachingTulip at:
http://TulipTheFlowerOfChristianity.lefora.com

Doug, posting simply to stir the pot is not welcome.

I've said this in another post... but I'll say it again, since you brought it up here.

How can an act which hardens a reprobate, and sends him deeper into his sin ever possibly be interpreted as an act of grace toward him?

Yep. It's a logical quagmire.

The more important question would be, do unrepentant sinners hate God?

The answer: Yes.

Is God obligated in any way to love those who hate Him?

The answer: No.

When we were dead in our sins and trespasses, did we saved Christians hate God?

The answer: Yes.

So God chose to love us despite our hatred of Him. Which is pure grace.

Those God chooses to leave reprobate in hatred of Him, is pure justice.

At least, that is how I see these matters taught in the bible.

Jim

I didn't I posted my opinion which goes against the grain here

Posting a hit-and-run opinion without the Scriptural grounding for it (you should have it, if you hold it to be what the Bible teaches) is what we generally refer to as "stirring the pot". You know it "goes against the grain", yet you posted your little quip anyway. That's why it's not appreciated. Posting of such pot-shot opinions isn't something you should be so willing to do.

So you didn't "answer, because well [you were] feeling controversial[?]"

Let's put it this way. If you're going to make a statement, please back it up with Scripture. If you're just going to say what "goes against the grain here," because you're "feeling controversial," then that's not too charitable, and I'm asking you to simply refrain from posting when that's your motivation.

When you first compare passages like Ezekiel 18:23 with Hosea 9:15 or Romans 9:13, it's seems hard to reconcile such passages. Our finite minds can not fully comprehend how the will of God works. We must interpret Scripture with Scripture and submit to the teaching of Scripture. We can not rely on our reason to understand how God Almighty works, but only his Word.

My view is that God hates wickedness, and yes he hates the wicked. At the same time, God does not delight in condemning the wicked to hell. He is a kind, compassionate merciful God, but he is also a God of justice.


A helpful article:
Are There Two Wills in God? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

__________________
Josh
URC
Sioux Center, IA
www.christianhomeschoolstore.com

Here's an audio debate on the subject. Is the Doctrine of Common Grace Reformed?
I agree with Engelsma that there is no common grace.

__________________
Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

All things that are not sinful can be used to glorify God. Soli Deo Gloria in action.

Can food be used to glorify God? I believe so. Can it be used for sin and wrong things? Absolutely.
What more is the thing which permits us to live and move other than grace?
I suppose I interpret grace differently than you. God provides, yes; God is provident, yes; but God's providence is an act of grace, which we still don't deserve. It is sin when God's blessings towards us are used for things other than the glorification of Him, which is actually idolatry. Good things become god things which makes it a bad thing.

I hope the answers your question.

I've thought about this subject before when I've heard friends of mine say, "God hates the sin, but not the sinner." It's sounds like a nice cliche, but I don't know if it's Biblical. Any thoughts?

Jakob,

Consider the whole of the Scriptures and its use of grace. Where has God shown grace and it wasn't specific, efficacious, and salvific in nature?

This "Two Wills of God" is a fallacious teaching, meant to suggest God desires that not all men perish, and is unhappy that many are consigned to hell, which contradicts the doctrine of divine reprobation, altogether.

It is an apologetic for teaching a "common grace" that is not biblical at all.

Whilst there is no monopoly on the belief of Common Grace amongst the Reformed, we do need to be charitable and not impute wrong intentions upon the parts of those with whom we disagree. It's easy to say that something isn't biblical, when the truth is it can be (in the sense that it seems a surface level reading may appear true). But simply because a case can be made from Scripture, doesn't mean it should be, or that it's necessarily rightly made. So, when dealing with our beloved with whom we disagree, we should certainly be willing to assume the best of their intentions and grant them charity.

It may seem fallacious to our human minds, but it's what God's Word teaches in both Ezekial 18 and 1 Timothy 2. God's revealed will and secret will are two different things.

I in a sense think that right now we live in a point of Grace. I think that because God is not actively killing us for our sins, although it is to come, we have a sense of grace displayed towards us.

The only act of provision or grace, in my opinion that affects all humanity, is the fact that we all are not in hell at this moment. I think that it is an act of Grace that God has spared humanity as far as He has, although surely justice is to come only accordingly.

All I'm simply trying to say is that I see my food, house, books, clothes, and everything I have as God being gracious to me. It is an act towards an ill deserving sinner like myself and I simply call it grace, because it's undeserved.

PSALM 5

4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6 You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

I wholeheartedly disagree, but the subject deserves its own thread.

Jim

For the record.
"Hate the sin, love the sinner" was a quote from Ghandi.
Hate the sin, show evidences of love towards the sinner, because they are just as undeserving of the forgiveness displayed towards you as you are.
We have no right to justly or righteously hate them for we fall short of the standard we are attempting to hold them up to.
We can love the sinner and hate the sin, because we too are sinners and we too hate our own sin. But this is us.

Which no Reformed person would deny. But one is what man ought to do, and the other is what God has decreed they do. God does not desire that all men without exception would be saved, or they would be. God is not conflicted with Himself, etc.

If you get a chance, read this review by Matthew Winzer cocnerning John Murray's The Free Offer of the Gospel. He deals adequately with the aforementioned passages.

Is there a Free Offer or just a command to repent and believe.

What you describe is God's long patient suffering with wickedness. And the only reason God suffers long with wicked men, is to work salvation for His elect. Once God saves the last elect soul, His patience with wickedness will abruptly end and Judgment Day will occur. No grace for the unrepentant reprobates on that Day!



Such things are providential, earthly blessings. Even the reprobate enjoy food, houses, books, clothes, etc.

Grace has always to do with the saving of sinful souls from deserved punishment and death, through the substitutional sufferings of Jesus Christ, and nothing less. God's grace always saves for it is always based on the cross work of the Savior; performed for the elect sons of God, alone.