While having a conversation with another brother in Christ yesterday, he said that he thinks "God loves the beleiver more than the Son". He said his only reason for his thinking was "that you dont send your son to die for someone if you dont love them more than the son"

Just wanted to get others thoughts and how you would have responded!

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Kevin M. Stone
Husband to Jacquelyn
Attending the Bridge ARP. Simpsonville SC
Learning to Rejoice in God, in all things!

Scripture is abundantly clear that God has loved and chosen men to be saved for the sake of Christ and His glory:

Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'"

John 5:20-23, 26-27 "For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man."

John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 17:24-26 "Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

Philippians 2:8-11 "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

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Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I would totally agree with Chris. God saved us because He loves His Son, not because He loves us more than His Son. It sounds like the other side of the dialogue has a very modern, Americanized idea about God, His purposes, and His plan, i.e. God loves everyone the way they are, etc. I could be wrong, but that's how it comes off.

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Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

Chris is absolutely right on. I thought of the passage in John 17; I appreciate the other Scriptures Chris has brought to bear on the question.

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~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
disabled - cancer
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

zzzzzz ...

People are constantly attempting to come up with some quirky cliche'. I would have responded with ;'Why does He love the believer?" The answer would be key to any further dialogue on the matter.

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N. Robert
RCA

"Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

If God the Father loves the believer more than He loves God the Son, that makes Almighty God an idolater, which is absurd to the highest degree.

However, the Son definitely loves the believer a lot!

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Taylor W. Otwell, Husband to Abigail
Member, Fellowship Bible Church
Fort Smith, Arkansas
Family Blog

All I have to add is:

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Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

Surely that would mean that He loved the creature more than the Creator? Such a concept is hardly Biblical.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Before we jump to conclusions and have this persons ears cut off, we should at least find out what he means by it. Like I said, It is probably no more than a pithy saying that he thought conveyed some truth.

I'm confused, are you saying that you should find out what I meant by my comment, or what the person who talked with the original poster meant by his comment?

What I was trying to say was that if God the Father does in fact love the believer more than God the Son, that makes God an idolater, which is absurd and impossible. God must love the Son more than He loves the believer. However, I added the verse and commentary on Christ's love for the believer in order to show that just because God doesn't love the believer more than the Son, it doesn't mean God doesn't really really love the believer.

What the person meant in the OP not you. It could be something that he obviously has not logically seen through. But I doubt he means to take anything away from the etrnal Love in the Triune Godhead. Kinda like "Let go and Let God" or some other stupid cliche'.

First let me say that the gentleman I had the coversation with would describe himself to be reformed and has a very deep passion for the Lord and and His word. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for this man. He has never been far out in left field, and I want to have more conversation around what he said. I did ask him to go a little deeper and he said that his opinion really is no deeper than "if God gave up the Son for us, then he must love us more". This man would not say that God does not love the Son, he is just saying that God loves us more. He gave the example of me giving my life to safe the life of my wife ...I therefore love my wife more than myself.

I think my friend is looking at it from Man' point of view and not God's.

Kevin:

From either viewpoint, he is wrong. Graciously exlain to him that although it may appear to sound credible and fantastic, it is against the writ. Christ is THE ELECT, the First fruits, The Only Begotten, The Alpha and Omega. Besides all these, to even suggest to make a comment like that is uncalled for. To quantify the love of God towards His Son vs man is again some sophist remark that perhaps may get some airtime in some circles, but is base none the less.

In response to a man saying, "Because God gave up his Son for us, he must love us more", I would say, "On the contrary, God loves himself more, as well as the displaying of his mercy and grace and other qualities, which become manifest through his loving of us. The end of all things is his glory and honor and praise."

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

Perhaps it would be best to ask this gentleman to consider the resurrection. The humiliation of Christ must not be divorced from His exaltation. Christ has been exalted to the highest degree and given the name above every name. Moreover, it is precisely because Christ was humbled to the point of death that He was exalted to the highest degree. What does that say about the Father's love?

I think also that the subject of the Father's love in Christ's death is best understood in terms of the bridegroom theme. The Father has given the church to the Son because He loves the Son. The Son must obtain His bride, and death is the means whereby He accomplished this. Hence the Father giving His Son to die for the church manifests the infinite love He bears to the Son because it is by this means that the Son is blessed by the Father.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."