This is from Fr. Copleston's exposition of Medieval Philosophy, particularly that of St Thomas,
Is this accurate?

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I'm not very good at rhetoric, Jacob, but how is this?

The manifestation of God's goodness requires the existance of evil.

It pleased God, in the beginning, when He created the world, to manifest His goodness.

Therefore, it pleased God to create a world in which He knew evil would somehow come into being.

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Are you asking if it's an accurate representation of Aquinas or if it's an accurate representation of Scripture?

God decrees everything that comes to pass. But there is the decree and there is the order through which the decree comes to pass. (By order I don't mean command but agent).

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Berny
Kendall Presbyterian Church, PCA
Miami, FL

The Perichoresis

"For how can the thought of God penetrate your mind without your realizing immediately that, since you are his handiwork...you owe your life to him?" - John Calvin

Was God good before evil was extant? Your quote seems to make God's goodness contingent upon the existence of evil. But before creation God was in a loving relationshiip with the members of the Godhead. There was no evil then, but yet God was still good.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I agree, but I was emphasizing the word 'manifest'. Can God's goodness be 'manifest' w/o evil? Can light be manifest without darkness?

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I think so. Was God manifesting goodness within the Godhead prior to creation?

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I believe that Jonathan Edwards believed that the eternal existance of Hell was in order that the holiness of God would be eternally evident, therefore while Gods goodness and holiness are self evident without evil they are glorified by the existence of evil, especially in the punishemnt of evil.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

But hell wasn't eternally existent. Otherwise we have the worst form of dualism imaginable. Only the Triune God is eternally existent.

But I get what you are saying.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Interesting point, and of course you are right.

I was using it in the same way as we use the phrase "eternal punishment" which as you have pointed out could be misleading.

I wonder if it would be more correct to phrase it never ending punishment?

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

I would lean towards saying that God was exhibiting goodness, but was not necessarily making it manifest. The scripture comes to mind that says, "what if God...has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known (ie. manifest) the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy,..." - Rom.9:22,23. It seems that the manifestation of the riches of his glory is dependent upon a thing involving its opposite prior to it, and so it cannot be known or understood properly in isolation.

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

God was not only good before he created the world but was manifesting his goodness before he created the world. Indeed, he has been eternally manifesting his attributes in relationship through Trinitarian interpenetration.

The goal of creation was to share himself with a people. And to borrow from Leibniz, if God's goal is to create the best possible world for his elect, then evil is a necessary element.

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Berny
Kendall Presbyterian Church, PCA
Miami, FL

The Perichoresis

"For how can the thought of God penetrate your mind without your realizing immediately that, since you are his handiwork...you owe your life to him?" - John Calvin

In my opinion, this is another attempt to explain the riddle of how God is not evil, and yet sovereignly authors and performs all things. I think it is technically innacurate, however, and falls short of reality.

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

But God doesn't perform all things.

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Berny
Kendall Presbyterian Church, PCA
Miami, FL

The Perichoresis

"For how can the thought of God penetrate your mind without your realizing immediately that, since you are his handiwork...you owe your life to him?" - John Calvin

Doesn't something have to be seen or experienced in order to be manifest?

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This is true insofar as we are addressing man's, or maybe the created universe's, perspective. We have, as well does hell, a starting point in time; God does not. It may be necessary from our linear perspective that evil exist that God's goodness may recieve it's proper glory, but that cannot be true for His eternal existence prior to the creation of the universe. The only extant intellect in that temporal environ was God's, and He is fully capable of thoroughly, properly, and super-sufficiently acknowledging the immeasurable glory of His own goodness. He doesn't need us and our fetid sinfulness to recieve glory.

It is more a case that He has endured the existence of wickedness as a necessary extension of the infinite grace He exerted for the purpose of creating for Himself a people.

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Brad
PCA Member
Virginia

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Correct. I thought the word "manifest" implied a second party to whom the manifestation was to be given, rather than unto one's own self. I suppose the word could be used to express a manifesting unto one's own self, however, and, in the case of God, he would need no opposite of goodness to fully understand the meaning.

Although God has endured the wicked, yet he has also made them for the manifesting of his glory to his creation. The scripture in Prov.16:4 says, "The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." and Rom.9:17, speaking of Pharaoh, "for this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show (ie. manifest) my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

As a first cause, he does, in my opinion. Yet, we are second causes in the process, and we never act independently of the first, or else, according to my judgment, we have compromised the definition of sovereign. Eph.1:11 says, "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will..." Rom.11:36 says, "for from him and through him and to him are all things." It's hard to put everything together and be loyal to all of the various definitions of words and doctrines of theology at the same time. Yet, we strive to do so, as little fleas riding on the back of an elephant explaining the world to one another.

Blessings!

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD