Christ's Death....for what exactly?

OPC'n · #1 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 03:36 PM

The other day I was thinking about Christ's death on the cross. Two aspects popped into my head: Him bearing and satisfying God's wrath (or literally going to hell for us but actually paying our debt which we would have had to pay in hell for forever) and His actual death.

Let me know if I have this messed up or not. The first mission accomplished on the cross was Christ bearing God's wrath in three hours for His children, because we could have never bore it no matter how much time was given to us. This He did before He died. But was there another mission He determined to accomplish? The age old enemy that came into this world at the time of the fall.....spiritual and physical death. God had promised Adam and Eve death if they disobeyed Him. That was the consequence of sin. Now Christ paid for our sins on the cross giving us eternal, spiritual life ridding us of spiritual death. Then He died Himself.....in order to raise from the grave in order to conquer physical death and give us eternal physical life. So He bore our sins to pay for them, but He died to give us eternal life....two separate but mutually needed missions.

Scott1 · #2 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 03:42 PM

It has been helpful for me to understand that Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life and died as the one and only perfect sacrifice for our sins. He lived for us and died for us.

So, Jesus perfectly obeyed God's commandment for (perfect) obedience, which we sometimes call the "covenant of works" God mad with Adam. As the "second Adam" He perfectly fulfilled what Adam failed to do.

His atoning sacrifice was perfect, and acceptable on the cross (fulfilling all the old testament inferior, insufficient, temporary sacrifices with the once and forever perfect sacrifice).

Then, in something unimaginably merciful, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us (counted "as if" for Christ's sake). Faith in that alone (which God gives us as a gift) justifies us, makes us legally "right" in God's sight- not because of us, but because of Christ.

Christ did it all!

Another aspect of this, if this is also part of what you are asking, is that He literally purchased the forgiveness of sins by His atoning life and sacrificial death for all believers, past, present and future. He actually accomplished that, at once and forever. That's the definite (limited) atonement- the "L" in tulip.

OPC'n · #3 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 03:58 PM

Yes, I agree with all that. I'm not talking about His life right now although that's just as important. I'm dividing up what He did on the cross into two different but mutually needed missions....paying for sins by bearing God wrath and dying on the cross that He might give us spiritual and physical life that would never end. We always say He died for my sins but really His death didn't pay for our sins....His bearing God's wrath did. His death lead to His resurrection (can't be raised from the dead if you don't die) which conquered death for Himself and for us when we are glorified.

Scott1 · #4 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

Yes, I agree with all that. I'm not talking about His life right now although that's just as important.
Right, the only point is that the atonement has the aspects of both His perfect life and perfect death.
I'm dividing up what He did on the cross into two different but mutually needed missions....paying for sins by bearing God wrath
part of the atonement
and dying on the cross that He might give us spiritual and physical life that would never end.
this was the reward, benefit, blessings of perfect obedience that had been offered to, and lost by Adam
We always say He died for my sins but really His death didn't pay for our sins....His bearing God's wrath did. God established a system of atonement that requires a perfect sacrifice
His death lead to His resurrection (can't be raised from the dead if you don't die) which conquered death for Himself and for us when we are glorified.
Yes, He was crucified, buried, descended and rose from the dead breaking the power of sin and death over us. Hallelujah!

.

TeachingTulip · #5 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

Yes, I agree with all that. I'm not talking about His life right now although that's just as important. I'm dividing up what He did on the cross into two different but mutually needed missions....paying for sins by bearing God wrath and dying on the cross that He might give us spiritual and physical life that would never end. We always say He died for my sins but really His death didn't pay for our sins....His bearing God's wrath did. His death lead to His resurrection (can't be raised from the dead if you don't die) which conquered death for Himself and for us when we are glorified.

Hi Sarah,

Christ obeyed all the Law of God and suffered the wrath of God in an act of propitiation that satisfied the justice of God. He did so as our Mediator and representative to spare us being judged on the last Day to suffer the "second death." (Rev. 2:11; 20:6)

"The wages of sin is death . . ." Romans 6:23 It was necessary Christ die in our stead, to remove the penalty from our account before God, else we would have to die for our sins.

I see it all as one work; forensic in nature, and if Christ had not accomplished satisfying all holy justice, there would have been no legal basis for Christ's righteousness to be imputed to our account.

As Scott1 related, the Covenant of Works by necessity had to be performed, in order for establishment of the New Covenant of Grace.

OPC'n · #6 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:20 PM

so it really isn't correct to say He died for my sins but rather we should say He bore the wrath for our sins and died that we might have eternal life.

**Prufrock** · #7 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

so it really isn't correct to say He died for my sins

Gal. 1:4; 1 Pet. 3:18; Is. 53:5; 1 Co. 15:3 (forgot about that last one until I saw the post below!)

TeachingTulip · #8 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

so it really isn't correct to say He died for my sins

Scripture says Christ "died for our sins" (I Cor. 15:3) "according to Scripture" that describes Him as a substitutional sin-bearer. (Isaiah Chapter 53)

Point being, it was our death He died; not His own.

OPC'n · #9 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:42 PM

right it also says that He died for the whole world but we know He didn't. scripture can't always be interpreted so simply. did His death pay for our sins? or did His bearing of God's wrath. Isaiah speaks of Christ being broken by God and that it pleased God to break Him because that is how Christ bore our sins and paid for them. if He hadn't bore God's wrath then His death would have meant nothing. if He had only bore God's wrath and not died then we would have been able to go to heaven but we would not have glorified bodies bc He wouldn't have conquered death.

**Prufrock** · #10 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:46 PM

Sarah, you seem to be way over-complicating the matter; a rough parallel to the question you are asking is, "When I bought my Skittles yesterday, did my money pay for them, or did my paying the price pay for them? Which one?" Christ's death was the decreed and acceptable payment for satisfying God's wrath and justice.

Scott1 · #11 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

right it also says that He died for the whole world but we know He didn't. Yes, but in context that means [all sorts of people in the world] and especially connotes both Jew and Gentile. We read into that "every single person," but in context, that's not what it is saying. (Also we ignore the logic of if Christ died for every single person, why aren't they all saved?) scripture can't always be interpreted so simply. Right, context is important, interpreting the unclear in light of the clear, the Old Testament in light of the New, etc. did His death pay for our sins? Yes, because that's what a sacrifice is intended to do. or did His bearing of God's wrath.Yes, Jesus received the punishment for our sins as a substitute for us. Isaiah speaks of Christ being broken by God and that it pleased God to break Him because that is how Christ bore our sins and paid for them. if He hadn't bore God's wrath then His death would have meant nothing. Yes, a holy God must punish sin. if He had only bore God's wrath and not died then we would have been able to go to heaven but we would not have glorified bodies bc He wouldn't have conquered death.
Not sure what might have happened. This might get into some deep theology about the resurrection, others may be able to help us here.

It was necessary for Christ to be raised from the dead to break the power of sin and death over us.

.

OPC'n · #12 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Sarah, you seem to be way over-complicating the matter; a rough parallel to the question you are asking is, "When I bought my Skittles yesterday, did my money pay for them, or did my paying the price pay for them? Which one?" Christ's death was the decreed and acceptable payment for satisfying God's wrath and justice.

Hey! We have the same number of "thanked" lol.

Anyway, nope I'm not saying that at all. I'm not asking how He paid for our sins. That's told to us....I'm just trying to say that I think we try to push in His death as being the payment when His death was done by Him in order to give us glorified bodies. So:

His righteous life=our righteousness
His wrath bearing=our pardon
His death=our glorified bodies

They all are needed for the salvific process but each act had its own unique mission.

TeachingTulip · #13 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

right it also says that He died for the whole world but we know He didn't.

Where does Scripture say this?

Quote:

scripture can't always be interpreted so simply. did His death pay for our sins? or did His bearing of God's wrath.

The full force of God's wrath against sin is the sentence of death. Death is the end result of God's wrath. For every sinner.

Quote:

Isaiah speaks of Christ being broken by God and that it pleased God to break Him because that is how Christ bore our sins and paid for them. if He hadn't bore God's wrath then His death would have meant nothing.

I fear you are making an unnecessary and erroneous distinction.

Godly wrath/death are the same legal consequence of imputed sin.

Quote:

if He had only bore God's wrath and not died then we would have been able to go to heaven but we would not have glorified bodies bc He wouldn't have conquered death.

This is an invalid hypothetical, which should not be entertained, I am sorry to say. It does not stand the scrutiny of I Cor. 15:50-57.

OPC'n · #14 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 05:05 PM

So you would disagree with this?:

His righteous life=our righteousness
His wrath bearing=our pardon
His death=our glorified bodies

They all are needed for the salvific process but each act had its own unique mission.

***greenbaggins*** · #15 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 05:12 PM

Sarah, I would probably put it this way: Yes, Christ's suffering on the cross the penalty of hell was to take the guilt away. His death was part of this, however, since there is both a physical and a spiritual death that Jesus has to fix. In the OT, for instance, the lamb had to die on the day of atonement. Of course, Christ's suffering the pain of hell on the cross was a spiritual death. But as the consequence of sin is both physical and spiritual, so Christ's death had to be both physical and spiritual in order to atone fully for us. Christ's actual death accomplishes more than atonement, as you have noted. It is also the overturning of sin's power, not just sin's guilt. Our two-fold problem of sin's guilt and sin's power is dealt with by Christ in the entire death-resurrection-ascension complex of events. It is usually preferable not to rend the garment that Christ has created for us. So, it is probably most helpful to think of Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension as one basic event that has many saving aspects to it.

Scott1 · #16 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

TranZ4MR
I'm just trying to say that I think we try to push in His death as being the payment when His death was done by Him in order to give us glorified bodies. So:

His righteous life=our righteousness
His wrath bearing=our pardon
His death=our glorified bodies

They all are needed for the salvific process but each act had its own unique mission.
We're told the wages of sin is death, so His death paid that penalty. (Romans 6:23)

Salvation is eternal life but also may be looked at from the standpoint of redemption, which is a process as you allude to. The process involves election, inner calling, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification... Christ made it all possible.

Good questions.

Richard Tallach · #17 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 05:16 PM

Physical death as well as eternal death was part of the penalty for our sins. Christ suffered Hell for us on the Cross. Because He is God as well as Man the value of His sacrifice - six hours on the Cross - was infinite, and could have paid for the sins of everyone if that was God's intention.

It's difficult to divide up Christ's work in this way, although the Bible does it to a certain extent, and so do theologians e.g. distinguishing between Christ's active and passive righteousness, both of which are necessary to save us.

If Christ had hypothetically just paid the price for our sins ("passive" righteousness) without living for us, that would just take us back to the state of probation Adam was in.

If Christ hypothetically had just lived for us ("active" righteousness) without paying the price for our sins, that righteousness could not be ours because of the sins we had committed which came between us and God.

By His resurrection, Christ gave His people proof that His life and death were acceptable to God, and also gave His people evidence of the fact that they ultimately will receive a complete salvation - body and soul - and indeed a salvation from death, through Him.

In Jesus we have the complete package

OPC'n · #18 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbaggins

Sarah, I would probably put it this way: Yes, Christ's suffering on the cross the penalty of hell was to take the guilt away. His death was part of this, however, since there is both a physical and a spiritual death that Jesus has to fix. In the OT, for instance, the lamb had to die on the day of atonement. Of course, Christ's suffering the pain of hell on the cross was a spiritual death. But as the consequence of sin is both physical and spiritual, so Christ's death had to be both physical and spiritual in order to atone fully for us. Christ's actual death accomplishes more than atonement, as you have noted. It is also the overturning of sin's power, not just sin's guilt. Our two-fold problem of sin's guilt and sin's power is dealt with by Christ in the entire death-resurrection-ascension complex of events. It is usually preferable not to rend the garment that Christ has created for us. So, it is probably most helpful to think of Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension as one basic event that has many saving aspects to it.

I have to go in a few minutes so I don't want to get into the whole part of those who will remain in hell will also get resurrected bodies....but I will come back and ask you some more questions.

Richard Tallach · #19 (**permalink**) 08-03-2009, 05:41 PM

I have to go in a few minutes so I don't want to get into the whole part of those who will remain in hell will also get resurrected bodies....but I will come back and ask you some more questions.

Yes. We're not told too much about that, but it will be a resurrection unto judgement in that they must pay for the sins they committed while in the body, in body and soul. It's not a resurrection based on Christ's work but on the basis of perfect justice.