I have been trying to develop a theodicy regarding the existence of evil (as opposed to regarding the persistence of evil, which I believe I have covered), and the most difficult topic by far is the cause of Lucifer's rebellion and fall. Although God, insofar as He is the cause of everything, is the ultimate cause of evil (Isaiah 45:7), it is wrong to charge Him with being the proximate cause of any sin or being the author of sin.

By keeping consistent with a compatibilist view of free will (as espoused by Jonathan Edwards and others, where our moral characters determine our actions), I have been wondering how Lucifer's character could be affected to the point that he would choose disobedience. Is it permissible to say that God could lower Lucifer's moral character, or that God created Lucifer as less than morally perfect?

I'm just trying to figure out how Lucifer could be morally tainted (if ever so slightly) without disparaging God's goodness. Some help would be awesome.

If anyone wants passages of Scripture relating to Satan's fall, here are the ones I know of:
Isaiah 14:12-14
Ezekiel 28:12-18

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As a side note, I just discovered the PB Theological Journal section, and I am ecstatic. I don't know how I missed it earlier.

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Ben - C&MA - Ohio

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

If moral character is the boundaries of one's actions, then imperfect moral character has to be the boundary of disobedience.

If only imperfect moral character is the boundary of disobedience, then Adam and Eve were necessarily created thus with those same boundaries.

The conundrum of Lucifer's rebellion is resolved in the same way as one resolves Adam and Eve's.

Edited: To include Mr. Todd's corrections.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

John Piper had, what I believe to be, an excellent sermon on the topic here.

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Dan Pemberton
Vacaville, CA

Member, First Baptist Church San Luis Obispo
Formerly ABUSA (We left, so I guess that makes us American Baptists Unleashed!)

Lucifer thought (said in his heart, Isaiah 14:13) he could be like God. As to not disparaging God's goodness, we need to relate to the problem of evil. This is an idea I've been thinking on. Now evil is not a force in itself. Like when we say Hot/Cold. A thermometer only measures heat, cold is a relative term and heat is what we measure objectively. When we say it's cold outside, it really means there's no heat outside. In the same way, evil is just an absence of good. ie, God withdrawing Himself and His goodness. Lucifer problem wasn't rank sin and deed's, but saying in his heart that he could be like God. And that lead to him trying to do it. Because any created being could not be created morally perfect, because only God is morally perfect. Even 1/3 of the angels followed him, and not God. And they could see God. hmmm

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Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA

This is well put. I would be careful not to say that one's moral character is the CAUSE of one's actions, but that it places BOUNDS on one's actions - this is closer to what Edwards and others have said. That is, we are free to choose that which is compatible with (bounded by) the limits imposed by our moral character.

As Andrew has said, the mere fact of imperfection (i.e. the fact that Lucifer, as Adam, was created posse peccare, posse non peccare - able to sin, able to not sin) of Lucifer's moral character means that he could fall, since morally he was able to do so. If you have resolved the reasoning behind Adam's fall, then applying the same reasoning to Lucifer solves the "problem" of his.

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://semperubi.rtrc.net

"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)


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I understand that much. And I understand that the answer will be the same for Adam and Eve. My only question is how the moral character of a being created by God can be imperfect. Is it possible for God to create unfallen beings who have a capacity to sin, or is that an attack on God's goodness? Is it possible for Him to lower others' characters from original perfection to another state that would allow for sin?

Well, seeing as God's decretive will is carried out to the last minute detail, our characters would have to predetermine our every decision, so, while it might not be best to call them the cause, our moral decisions are absolutely contingent on our characters and only our characters. If we had libertarian freedom of choice regarding anything, God would cease to have a decretive will.

Also, are you saying that it's permissible for God to create creatures with an imperfect moral character (the ability not to sin rather than the inability to sin, which we will possess in heaven)? That is the key question I have.

Ben, I think you've answered your own question. If God created Lucifer/Adam or whomever with an inability to sin then they wouldn't have sinned. So they were created with the ability to sin, but were placed under no external compulsion or given any internal impulse to do so. I think W.G.T. Shedd well observed that we are baffled when we look for the ultimate reasons for sin, because sin is irrational. Why would Lucifer do this? There is no reason. Sin is absurd.

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Ruben
Moderator

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Hmmm, I think an examination of the other option is in order.

Could God create another being morally perfect and unable to sin, like Himself? No, this would be outside of the character and nature of God to do so. It is logically impossible for this to occur.

Man is a lower being, as are angels, and the immutable perfect nature of God is not a communicable attribute God, by nature, can convey to a creation from what we know about Him. Both man and angels are necessarily lower than God in moral ability. What I mean by moral ability is the boundaries, as Mr. Todd pointed out earlier, one is constrained to. God cannot sin, we (angelic and human beings) can and have and do. While propensity to sin was absent in the Garden and with Lucifer, the ability to do so was as a necessary condition.

From there, as Mr. Ruben has so aptly noted, the irrationality and absurdity of the choice is brought into full view

I don't think our ability to sin was a necessary condition tied to our human nature. The Lord could have created us without the ability to sin, but He didn't for reasons only known to Him at this point.

Jesus has a human nature as well as a Divine; therefore He's a case in point of the fact that God could have created us without the propensity toward sin.

Also, in the final state, we will not have the ability to sin... We will still have a human nature, but we won't have the ability to sin (praise the Lord!).

Just more to think about in light of the subject.

By the way, see the following post for more information about the fall of Satan, etc. Also note the arguments about the reference to Lucifer in Is. 14 as referring to Nebuchadnezzar rather than Satan... Why was Lucifer created?

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Pastor Steve Bradley
Trinity Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA)
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Riva, MD

I'd have to disagree with this proposition. Jesus was not created, but is an eternal Person within the Godhead. This does not therefore serve as evidence to prove the assertion.

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Brad
PCA Member
Virginia

I'm referring to His human nature; His human nature is not something He had in eternity past. He became human. Continuing to be what He was--God, He became what He was not--human.

See WCF 8:

WCF 8:2 WCF 8.2 The Son of God, the second person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fulness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature,(1) with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;(2) being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, of her substance.(3) So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.(4) Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.(5)

(1)John 1:1,14; 1 John 5:20; Phil. 2:6; Gal. 4:4.
(2)Heb. 2:14,16,17; Heb. 4:15.
(3)Luke 1:27,31,35; Gal. 4:4.
(4)Luke 1:35; Col. 2:9; Rom. 9:5; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1 Tim. 3:16.
(5)Rom. 1:3,4; 1 Tim. 2:5.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that your character predetermines your every decision (or nobody would ever be inconsistent - unless inconsistency is the hallmark of everyone's character)

Note I never said that we had libertarian free choice. We are constrained by our characters - the regenerate, as posse peccare, posse non peccare, and the unregenerate by non posse non peccare.

Well, it's permissible for God to create whatever He wanted to, so long as it is consistent with His perfect character, but what He did do was create Adam and Eve (and the angels) with both the ability to sin and the ability not to sin. (but not such a perfection of character that they were unable to sin)

As Steve said, in our final, heavenly states, we will have the inability to sin. However, God created Adam and Lucifer with the ability to sin, although probably a significantly high moral character. We have a couple options resulting from this:

1. God is capable of creating a being with moral perfection, but He can raise their moral characters later, through some kind of supernatural action (sanctification).
2. God is capable of creating a being with moral perfection, but He chose not to do so.

Which one of these (if any, or both) is consistent with God's character?

Also, how does moral imperfection (seeing as Adam had the ability to sin at the point of creation) coincide with the belief in a perfect creation?

Well, inconsistency can be innate to a person's moral character. I'm sure it cannot be represented by one linear model, and I'm also sure that it is not static.

And my point is that if we are not constrained by our characters to the point that only one decision is possible (and thus we can make libertarian choices) in every single choice that we make, then God can not ordain events to the last detail.

Please see my two options in my most recent post and tell me which one you think is preferable, or if I have presented a false dichotomy.

Are you lumping us (all of humanity, after Adam) into #1 above? Our character, tainted by Adam's sin from the moment of conception, is not at question - only Adam's. We derive our character from him, and as such questions about how God can create creatures with our characteristics deviates from the main point. I'm not sure I'd call Adam's transition into a heavenly state of non posse peccare "sanctification", but rather "glorification".

It is apparent from Scripture and history that God has attributes of mercy and of justice to demonstrate, unto His own glory. He would have been unable to display His attribute of mercy if He only created morally perfect, impeccable creatures who were unable to sin.

Hence 2. is inconsistent with His character.

Where does Scripture say that creation was perfect?

Every decision we make is according to our strongest wish at the time. This is what Edwards (correctly) teaches. Since we have only one strongest wish at any one time, then at the time at which a decision is made, in effect only one decision is possible. I'm not sure where you're going with this.

see my response.

No, I'm just referring to Adam. Although, he still could have been sanctified (or glorified, I'm not sure which is the right word in this context) -- he could have been given the inability to sin -- had he obediently fulfilled the covenant of works. This still would have ultimately been an act of grace for God, since God was never obliged to condescend and institute the CoW in the first place, so my point that God could have created an unfallen yet morally imperfect being and then graciously sanctify him later is still solid.

Here, you mean "unable" in the sense that it would have not been preferable, since it would not have maximally glorified Himself. However, do you think He would be capable of creating morally perfect beings, in terms of His abilities. Say, for some reason, that He would be more glorified in the creation of morally perfect beings; would He be capable of creating such beings then?

I guess this just establishes my ignorance. For some reason, I thought there was some confession or something that claimed that creation was "perfect." My mistake.

We are in agreement, then. I guess I just had a problem with your saying that our characters constrained our choices, for I thought that this implied that we had some range of choices rather than only once choice.