Theres something that I've been considering today that I wanted to share and get your views on. I hope it won't be as controversial as the homosexuality topic lol. I hope people didn't take that series too personally, and if anyone was offended please accept my apology.

So I was considering, are we, as bible believing Christians as a whole, as in fundamentalists, Presbyterians and even arminian groups, blocking the way for many people to come into a relationship with Christ by faith.

What I mean by that is this, by our preaching, and our church and by our gospel presentations at times, are we limiting the way for say a person who kinda believes in a God, but cannot with their God-given logic, say that the beginning of genesis is literally 6 days and the world was created 6000 or so years ago?

It seems that we as bible believers have made a few loops that we are requiring people to jump through that really the bible doesn't require them to jump through:

1) That the Genesis account is literal and historical and they need to believe that if they're going to have a relationship with Jesus Christ and get saved.

2) That they must 100 percent accept that the bible is infallible, inerrant and the word of God before they can get saved.

and im sure many, many more.

Now those 2 things above, I absolutely believe are important and are true. I believe that genesis 1-3 actually happened and I believe the bible. However these are the main points that we seem to force people to accept, and thus those who cannot with their mind and logic say amen to, we kind of say to those people well your filled with unbelief and you cannot get saved, or that they must accept these things to be able to call yourself a Christian - we may not say that but that's the perception we give off.

A lot of people I've spoken to and a lot of my friends, this is the main problem they have with Christianity.

I think that we've taken Christianity in part, and made it about a literal genesis 1-3 a bit too much.

I think that someone can become a Christian for example, if they take genesis 1-3 as metaphorical or theological instead of literal. I think that whether you take it metaphorically or literally you end up with the same 2 points, 1) God has created all things and he's Lord 2) Man has fallen and needs a savior. Now obviously we cannot do that with all of scripture, but there is debate as to what kind of literature genesis comes under. Is it historical, or more poetic theological mixed in with a bit of historicity?

Also I think that one doesn't need to believe what we protestants believe about the bible to be saved. At the end of the day were saved by faith alone in Christ alone, not faith in literal 6 days creation or the youth earth theory or a belief in sola scriptura.

So thats just one thing I thought I'd share, what are your thoughts?

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Lee Johnston
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Paisley, Scotland
Ephesians 1:4-5
"In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

The issue I feel, is never with creation or evolution. It has been and always will be justification by faith alone and through Christ alone. This is the single biggest scandal with regards to Christianity, that just screams in the face of every other religion/belief in the world. For a person to be saved, this is the issue to grasp.

I think you might be placing issues at the forefront which should not be, although one will wonder how you can believe in Christ if you don't hold a high regard for Scripture.

I certainly don't mention things like creation or the infallibility of the Scriptures when encountering a non-believer because that's not what he needs. He needs the gospel and has to grasp the gospel before anything else. Neither do I have a problem with people not being "convinced" of the gospel. Salvation is as supernatural an act as is the creation of the world. Maybe more so. It's the Holy Spirit's work and only after this should other peripherals come in.

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Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

I can respond by a personal account. Up until my early middle age, I was comfortable with a sort of "soft" Christianity that allowed for many views and many ways to believe. I was not at all a Christian. I liked the idea of it, and I like the culture of it, more or less. But I was comfortable that the "hard" things didn't really apply to me.

It changed only because I providentially was exposed to a few men, at different times, who took Jesus seriously. They reminded me of what he said about heaven, hell, eternity, and life. They presented a stark and defining picture, just as C.S. Lewis did: Jesus either meant what he said or he was a false teacher or a lunatic. And, of course, Jesus took Scripture quite seriously himself.

So, by the Spirit's work, it was check and mate. I either accepted Jesus' view of Scripture (as in being true and straightforward) or I didn't. If I took his view, I was undone without faith in him. After that, of course I had to look at Scripture the way he taught us to. That includes such niggly things as believing Genesis to be genuine and accurate history.

So, no, I don't think we are causing people to stumble by insisting on the doctrines and facts stated in the Bible. On the contrary, if we try to minimize the stark truth of Scripture, we are deceiving all we are trying to reach.

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Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Lee, I can see where you're coming from. I grew up in a fundamentalist church, and often when witnessing to people, members of our church would not give them the gospel, but instead would argue against evolution or another theological issue. Sometimes it seemed that Scripture hardly came up! I think this is a grave error. The gospel should come first and then we can talk about these various theological issues. I'm reminded of the Scripture about milk and meat (In 1 Cor 3?)

I have come to the conclusion that it is indeed possible to be saved without adhering to 6 day creation or without recognizing absolute inerrancy of Scripture. Some individuals don't even think of these issues when they are first confronted with Christianity. My aunt told me that she never even thought about how evolution contradicted Scripture until a few years after her conversion. She had so much other reading and studying in the Bible that she just didn't get to it until later.

Having said that, these are issues that will have to be dealt with at some point. And I think that its necessary to teach the truth of Scripture on these points. I just wouldn't insist that someone must be a creationist at the very beginning of their walk with Christ.

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Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

very true montana.

I agree wholeheartedly that we must follow up with good and solid doctrine and with a solid interpretation of scripture eventually.

Kathleen makes a very good point. I cannot believe how many "Creation Science" advocates I've run across who I suspect have no faith in Christ at all. I personally know of two who have devoted years to the cause of debunking evolution, yet have admitted to me that they cannot come around to believing that Jesus Christ is God and (the only) Saviour.

It is remarkable what lengths people will go to to try to earn God's favor while denying him.

Your question is answered by what you took for granted IN your question. In other words, when you ask "So I was considering, are we, as bible believing Christians as a whole, as in fundamentalists, Presbyterians and even arminian groups, blocking the way for many people to come into a relationship with Christ by faith?", you assume the Christ as revealed in the Bible. We proclaim the Gospel as revealed in the Bible, therefore if we cannot appeal to the authority of Scripture and establish the authority of Scripture from the beginning, then there is no reason to speak of a Gospel or Christ.

It's is easy to demonstrate to folks that everyone has a presupposition, a first principle at the base of their worldview. The Christian must (if there is to be any sound basis for reasoning) include "There is a God and he's revealed himself in His Word, the Bible" at the least. If you leave the authority of Scripture out then God could be anything, the impersonal prime mover, the great cosmic gas, etc.

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Bob Vigneault C.O.L, L.E., G.E, Dr.O.P., O.U.T.
The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
Deacon/Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

This is a good point, and after reading it, I'm afraid I was unclear in my earlier post. Assuming and teaching the inerrancy of Scripture is essential when presenting the gospel. Otherwise the gospel has no weight! What I meant to convey was that we can easily get sidetracked onto issues that are doctrinally important, but are probably best discussed after someone has been convicted of the the gospel rather than before. After all, a non believer has no reason to even consider creationism rather than evolution - but it should be a concern to someone who has a saving faith in Christ.

True bob, we must appeal to the bible of course, but my point is we don't need to preach sola scriptura as part of the gospel presentation or that they must accept the bible. We must preach that they must accept Christ and his salvation. Now of course that includes accepting the bible but in a more indirect fashion.

I would agree that salvation is through justification by faith alone and through Christ alone, therefore, no a person doesn’t necessarily have to have all their doctrinal and/or theological ducks in a row. However, using your second jumping through hoop - they must 100 percent accept that the bible is infallible, inerrant and the word of God – I would be wary of someone who rejected this because the bible is how God has chosen to reveal Himself and His plan for salvation to us. If someone doubts the truth and reliability of the scriptures, even in part, then how could they be certain of any of it’s truth, including the Gospel.

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Andrew S.
Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Abilene,TX

The biggest problem in the way of people "seeing Jesus" is the smokescreen that Satan and his co-workers has put there. There is a veil of lies that has been put there, and unless God pulls the blinders off, they do not accept the truth. Arguing with people over secondary issues of doctrine will never birth someone into the Kingdom. It all boils down to one question that Jesus asked: "Who do YOU say I am?". If someone is looking to disprove certain points of scripture, then the one who the scripture is pointing to as messiah, Jesus, is most likely not calling them at that time.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

My take on it is this:

I think that someone can be saved and still be ignorant of both of those issues...lotsa people have never really "worked through" those issues....but the line is drawn when someone professes to be saved and then doubts the inerrancy of the bible...that's not possible; it's like a square circle.

You can't say; "I believe the gospel but it's probably not even really God's word..."

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Robert
Lay Person
PCA
West Virginia
Go share your faith

Lee there are some underlying dangers to the position that you have laid out. We are justified by faith; faith being taking God at His Word in all that he has revealed. There is no picking and choosing from among God's gracious redemptive revelation to mankind which portions we will believe.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

It is important to note here that the apostle did not state that Abraham believed some portion of what God had said (and not necessarily others) but that ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD!

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Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

It is also important to note that salvation is a work of God. The Holy Spirit regenerates us through the hearing of His word. God gives us Faith and Repentance. And this faith and repentance are the means by which we are justified through Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross.

Certainly we should not add unnecessary stumbling blocks which may cause them to close their ears to the gospel. But it is not through our reasoning that one becomes saved. By close their ears I mean to say that it is not always the first time an elect person hears the gospel that the Holy Spirit regenerates them. And often the person hears the gospel rejects it and then studies further and receives the gospel. By trying to make an unregenerate person accept all of the supernatural claims of God's word before they have been given supernatural understanding we can hinder them from hearing the Gospel.
Ok the above is a little unnecessary to the thread but I was working it out in my own head before posting.


The innerancy of scripture is necessary as pointed out previously. If the Bible is not true then the Gospel it teaches is not true.

The only supernatural occurrence in the bible that is that which is contained in the Gospel, Christ is God in the flesh, he took on the sins of all who believe, he died and was resurrected on the third day. These are necessary beliefs for salvation, this is what the saving faith given by the Holy Spirit is in.

The other supernatural occurrences of the bible, the Creation account, The Flood, The Tower of Babel and other such historically accurate accounts should be believed as true by a believer but are not necessary for salvation. The Holy Spirit will lead all whom to dwells in to these truths in His time, through the study of His word and the teaching of those who faithfully teach and preach His word.

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Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

I agree with you - the sheep know their Shepherd's voice. Any small controversies over textual corruption are insignificant.

I feel very passionately about this fact. My particular point of view won't be popular here though - the biggest deception of Satan that I know of (apart from the general attractiveness of sin) is the supposed necessity of the argument over God's method of creation. Christendom has allowed its enemies and its detractors to set the agenda; in our spirited defense of scripture's supremecy over other forms of evidence we have marginalised the effectiveness of the proclamation of the gospel. As usual, an excess of a good thing has turned it into a bad thing.

I imagine how things would have turned out if in Darwin's time the church had responded with, "We won't be sidetracked from the proclamation of the gospel by this; we won't presume to tell you scientists what to do or think apart from the gospel; we won't make the same mistake as the Romans did with Galileo; we have an urgent matter of supreme clarity to attend to that no-one can gainsay." To borrow a word from usenet, we have been TROLLED and we're still going along with it while the enemy is laughing all the way to the soul bank.

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Paul
No denomination, affiliated with FIEC
"Deliver me from worldly dispositions, for I am born from above and destined for glory" - Valley of Vision
"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation" - Peter

Amen. And we need to keep in mind that we lack the power to prevent the salvation of one of the elect, and we lack the power to cause the salvation of one of the elect.

God, in his infinite grace, sometimes permits us to participate in the process, but we shouldn't let our ego cause us to forget our place.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Nicely put.

Soli Deo Gloria