I am curious if anyone here came to Reformed/Confessional/Covenant Theology and Churches through something other than a skirmish with God on the Doctrine of Election. Is this always the first battle that must be fought to win a Christian heart to confessionalism? Or can it begin elsewhere? In theory it seems like it could although I've never heard a of a story where this happened.

Perhaps election is a doctrine which is able shock someone enough to get them to think about other things more deeply and biblically?

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Christopher
Escondido OPC (Escondido, CA)
M.Div. Student at Westminster Seminary California

Hey Chris,

Enjoying the post-finals lull? Dude, I am so smoked! I think that I slept away most of the last two days of my earthly life (which is still less than the sleep that I lost during exams).

But to answer your question - not I. It was the doctrine of election that first awoke me from my slumber, nor have I heard anybody else with a different tale. I think that election is both a powerful doctrine, and one that is more easily grasped at the outset than the doctrine of the covenants.

The latter is much more complex (as can be seen by the fact that Reformed theologians still debate the proper definition of one), and its study in the Scriptures requires a more sophisticated approach. If you've ever noticed, at WSC there are no courses devoted solely to the doctrine of election, but there are several that are offered on the covenants. In fact, Dr. Baugh will be offering a course this Spring on "Covenant in the NT". Dr. Clark offers one on Covenant theology as a whole, and much of Baugh's General epistles and Revelation class focuses upon understanding the covenantal theology which undergirds the epistle to the Hebrews.

I believe that they place the emphasis upon this both because it needs more study to comprehend, as well as the fact that it is ultimately the covenants (and specifically the pactum salutis/Covenant of Redemption) that form the backdrop for understanding election. They are its ground, and it is merely one aspect of that whole.

I think that it is probably a natural progression to move from election, to covenant, and then to covenantal baptism! That, however, is most assuredly a topic for another time...

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Adam J. Myer
Slated for the Jan. 10th Chaplains Basic Officer Leadership Course
Estacada Christian Church
Sandy, Oregon

Soli Deo Gloria

Though the doctrines of grace were the "starting point" for me as well in my discovery of Reformed theology, I think it can largely depend on someone's spiritual issues, thoughts and possibly struggles at the time, intellectually and/or heart-wise.

For instance, I could definitely see someone beginning to come to a Reformed understanding of God, Scripture and life through an exposure to Reformed spirituality - theology of the Cross vs. theology of glory, the Church and its function in the lives of individual believers, community, means of grace, rejection of "still small voice" theology, what true communion with God is, worship, etc. After all, I have already heard a wide variety of account regarding how natural and easy or difficult it was for different people to initially accept the doctrines of grace - and the same may be true with Reformed spirituality with some people, and it may be even more fitting for some to go through it before the doctrines of grace and providence.

And even that is but one possible example as well...

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Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

For me, it was a personal study of the parables that led me to the doctrine of election. So, the elective decree was catalyst.

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Loedship salvation lead me to reformed theology. As an evangelical I was going crazy wondering why so many of my supposed "brothers and sisters" wre calling some of the most un-Godly people I had ever known or seen "Christians".

I knew our works had nothing to do with our salvation, but surely that didn't mean a Christian could do what ever he pleased. However, if I dared speak about this I would get attacked and called names. I began to be banned from numerous "christian" message boards when I began to quote John MaCarthur so I started looking for other places to visit online and found this place!

Through MaCarthur's books and posts here I was intorduced to election and the D.o.G. and I asked how I could find a church that taught this stuff. I was lead to the PCA website and found one that was fairly local.

So, here I am today.

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Adam - Pennsylvania - Baptist

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/p...5655012&ref=nf

For me, it was the doctrine of civil magistracy that lead me to Reformed theology in God's providence. After being raised Roman Catholic, becoming a Baha'i, then converting to evangelical Christianity, I came to the conviction that our government was unBiblical. My cousin then taught me about the Scottish Covenanters and their view of civil magistracy. That in turn lead to the whole Reformed system of theology, praise God!

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Andrew

I was dragged kicking and screaming to the doctrines of grace by a simple self study of the book of Ephesians. As simple as that. The Scriptures.

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Donald Jacobs
Roanoke VA.
Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

Mine was more windy.

I started with the Scriptures, and did not have the theological mindset at the time to connect all the dots as I should. I was looking in the school bookstore for a light, short read on the death of Christ to "understand these things better" and so I picked up "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ," by Owen. Catchy title - good marketing! Not light reading though. But I managed to work through it.

After about 100 pages, I was on board. The dots were connected. I really did not go through "fighting" against it. It was more like reading a book - progressive revelation. I distinctly remember saying out loud,
"Of course he is right. This is right." (Speaking of Owen's exegesis and work on John 3).

I did, however, see some of my friends vehemently hate the progression, and subsequently me in many respects.

Theologically, it was just gaining more knowledge at that point.

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C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D. (Pot hole Digger)
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.com, www.apuritansmind.com and www.puritanpublications.com
Member - Christ Presbyterian Church

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

How interesting! Praise God for his work!

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Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

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How does somebody like me answer this question? Covenant child. Child of the manse (so to speak, never lived in a manse). Reads other views, hears other views, of salvation, of eschatology, of covenant, etc., reflects, rejects, buys the truth and doesn't sell it. Not my doing, mind you, not my power.

Guys, I honestly don't know what it is like to come to Reformed theology. That's not a bad thing. I know a lot of you would like that to be your own story. But you will always have something that I don't really know--the light breaking in and dawning. Your sons and daughters will many of them have my experience--of growing up in a theological house already built.

By the way, Paul Manata has great testimony of rejecting the only Christianity he knew about--a synergistic, broad-minded nothing--as being nonsense. Then being confronted with a full-orbed Reformed theology with a sovereign God, and knowing right then he had come in contact with the truth--by the H.S. of course--the only way he could possibly see what he could see.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us.
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Boy, you started right away with the high-octane stuff! That's like looking for a "light, short read" on gravity and starting out with some highly technical treatise in a physics journal.

I guess after having started with Owen, you've worked your way "down" from there!

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Richard T. Zuelch, M.Div
Ruling Elder, OPC (not currently serving)
Westminster Presbyterian Church, CA (OPC)
www.alexandermaclaren.wordpress.com
www.reiterations.wordpress.com
www.spurgeonswords.wordpress.com

Devout souls do not take offence at the depths and difficulties of God's Word, but are, thereby, drawn to intenser contemplation of them. - Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910)

God has blessed me with an uncle who is thoroughly reformed in theology. He walked me through my struggles in becoming a Christian five years ago.

My big moment with reformed theology though was when I read Romans 9. There really is no way to wriggle out of that passage. I don't actually know how people can do it.

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Vaughan
BTh Student, Presbyterian Theological Centre
Student Assistant, Ashfield Presbyterian Church
Sydney, Australia
The Ransomed

That, I think, was a good thing for me.

After working through Owen, like you said, its all downhill from there (in a tough sort of way).

But then you find Edward Reynolds, Stephen Charnock, David Clarkson, Richard Sibbs, Thomas Manton, William Jenkyn, and the high octance goes back up again!

If one can read through and follow Owen, there is no doubt he preps you for everything else.

I'm glad I picked that one up first though.
Can you imagine all the other books that were in a college bookstore that I COULD have picked up? I mean, it was an Arminian, charismatic, Pentecostal bookstore. And yes, they had Owen. Go figure!

The biggest chain of Christian bookstores in Australia is like that. They justify their non-discernment by saying they want to "encourage discussion and debate". Hence their top ten list being as follows:

1. Osteen, Your best life now
2. Meyer, Look Great, Feel Great
3. Warren, Purpose Drivel
4. Packer, Knowing God.
5. Some garbage... etc. etc.

Which of these things is not like the other?

It was John MacArthur's teaching on election that initially got me here. It was Louis Berkhof's systematic theology that helped me finalize my position to a more reformed position.

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Allen
Memorial Baptist Church
Pasadena Texas

I went from Roman Catholic to Word of Faith/Charismatic to about 3 years ago Reformed after encountering a former Dake/WOF follower on a Dake website who is now a Reformed pastor. He introduced me to Grudem, Piper, Berkhof etc. I read "Grace Unknown" by Sproul & highlighted & marked passages that I disagreed with & then went to the Word to prove MY point of view only to get hit by THE TRUTH & in turn convertd to the Reformed point of view. Romans 9 what the catch for me. I was in that chapter for weeks (months?) & finally had to admit I was WRONG. I believe I was already converted just not right in my doctrine. But then again maybe I wasn't. I then searched & found my current church "Church of The King McAllen" & have plugged in & am active. Finding "Desiring God" in a bookstore after it caught my eye "Hedonism!!!" was a major turning point as well.
Had the same problems as others here in that my so called "brothers & sisters in The Lord" started to dislike me when I started quoting MacArthur & Piper, Luther etc. Eventually found myself around a whole new group of believers.
Very uplifting reading others experiences here.

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Frank O Fuentes
Church of THE King
McAllen, Texas
Student at Edinburg Theological Seminary

Can you say...providential?

oh - and it was my introduction to the WCF with Scriptural proofs that lead me down the path. "the grass withers, the flower fades..."

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-JD

Believe it or not, J.N. Darby got me started on the road and Schofield's notes on election kept me going. I ignored their dispensationalism after a brief bit of study.

Then I ran across Spurgeon, who told me to read Owen. I read The Death of Death just as Matthew McMahon did. There was no real battle, just a bit of groping in the dark along the way.

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Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I guess I am in the minority here, for me it was the doctrine of Baptism.

I was a happy baptist debating with a Church of Christ minister on and off for a couple of years on baptism/baptismal regeneration. A study of the grammer of baptism in the NT lead me to baptism in the OT (WHAT BAPTISM IN THE OT? THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE IT IS A NEW !! COVENANT ORDINENCE!!) That led to a multi-year study of baptism, and so on, and so on, and so on...

So I went back to my presbyterian roots (scotch family).

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Doesn't Owen himself say, somewhere in The Death of Death that he doesn't think the book would ever be successfully refuted? In more than 300 years, I don't think it has been.

For me it was cessation of the gifts of the Spirit. I began by trying to discover the biblical nature and purpose of the charismatic gifts, because it seemed to me that the gifts were being misused at my charismatic church. I especially wanted to know the biblical nature and purpose of speaking in tongues, since that gift more than any other seemed to "authenticate" the charismatic experience. But even as a charismatic I knew something was wrong with what I was doing. I was driven to the scriptures (because I couldn't trust anyone else) to learn the truth.

Tongues in particular, as it turns out, was especially a covenant sign! It authenticated the inclusion of the gentiles into the people of God, and held special significance for unbelieving Jews of one single generation - the generation that Jesus said would bear "the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth from Abel to Zacharias ... all these things shall come upon this generation (Matthew 23:35-36)," the generation that betrayed and murdered God's Son. I had been taught almost nothing of covenants as a charismatic.

So I kinda sorta went from studying about the charismata to stumbling upon covenant theology. And from there to the Reformation!

I love this thread! Thanks for starting it.

-Robin

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Robin Arnaud
Springs Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Dunnellon, Florida
[I]simul iustus et peccator[/I]
==========================

I was a disillusioned college student that was recently converted. After coming to faith, I decided to turn down other offers and go play basketball at a Christian liberal arts college, since I thought I would grow better in that environment...how I was wrong!

After a semester of none of my teamates going to church, watching the same pastor/missionary kids live like alcoholic-drug adddict-pornstars, yet go up every week to the altar call or "repent" to the campus pastor, I was sick. I often thought, "There has to be more to Christianity."

Thankfully a professor was teaching things like the sufficiency of Scripture and the unchangeable election of God, and would give a few of us who became serious books by Luther, Spurgeon, and Edwards.

This set me down the path of a more serious-minded faith, but what drew me to the Reformed Church and her Faith was the liturgy of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, California. The first time I attended there in college I had no idea when to stand, sit, or sing from a hymnal, but it was substantive, it was reverent, and it was mysterious. I met the Trinue God of grace that day in the way he intended.

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Rev. Daniel R. Hyde
Pastor, Oceanside United Reformed Church, Carlsbad/Oceanside, California
Th.M. candidate, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary

I found this to be one of the most interesting threads I've read all year. It was great to be able to seek how others here arrived at their state. I feel like I know some of you better now.

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John
Member
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Salt Lake City, Utah
www.christpres.net

I was introduced to a Holy God.

CJ_Chelpka;

I didn't struggle to much with The Doctrine of Election (though I know many who do).

For me it was a matter of do I believe what the Bible says "yes or no?"
Yes, I did, So, Do I believe "God is God"? yes or no? Again, yes I did, so
IF God really is God as I said I believed, then why couldn't He elect some and not others? Well, He could...and I just accepted it as truth.

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Whats wrong with Packer? Nice first name!

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Matthew Vaughan
Presbyterian Reformed Church, Northern Va.
Warrenton, VA

I was born a heathen and come from a long proud line of ignorance, my parents did their best to set some "Christian" examples but since they themselves came from non-church going families it was difficult for them to set precedents without much example to follow.

When I was five we left Dallas and moved to Brazil, my father is an engineer and this was where the job brought him, there was actually a Baptist missions church sponsored by Chick Fill'A in Rio that we would attend. I remained oblivious to the true meaning of the gospel but luckily at this church was beneath the age of accountability

Next we moved to Borneo, this was an extreme exercise in the sovereign grace of God, we had actually been slated to make Kuwait our home but the year was 1990 and some madman named Saddam Hussein invaded and ruined our travel plans.

In Brunei, where Christianity was technically not legal, there were NO protestant churches. Local authorites weren't terribly facist about messing with expats because they were walking dollar signs but no protestant congregation publically emerged because it was illegal to preach to Muslims.

My parents and a handful of other American families as well as one Welsh family conducted Sunday morning Bible studies rotating secretly at eachother's homes, should anyone ask it was a brunch and barbeque.

Again it had noble intentions but evryone's novice understanding of scripture made it less than edifying.
The European families all thought what we did was "charming" but did not quite understand it.
I remained a God testing heathen and was quite content with it.

Next we moved to Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia where protestant churches were permitted but Muslims were not allowed through the door and any attempts to evangelize to Muslims had capital punishment on the books.

I was roughly 11 by this time and can testify how cold my "innocent" heart was toward God, I hated church, cared nothing for him.
By force I had to go to a Presbyterian Church there with my parents, it was Reformed but I wasn't listening so I never figured that out.
It went in one ear and out the other for my parents as well the best I can tell.

On to Australia where in Perth we never found a church, much to my pre-adolescent delight. We finally returned to the states where I picked up prayer in time for Dallas Cowboy playoff games and even have the recollection of threatening God. As if losing me as a member of His side, as I saw it, would be the reprecussions of him ignoring my requests. Wow, I suck.

Ironically my first attempt at apoloegtics, even though I knew none, came in about the 8th grade, my parents attended a Methodist Church with a divorced woman pastor but I did what I could not to go.

Anyhow I found myself taking offense to a Jewish friend's objections to Christianity, it stirred me to defend what I myself truly did not know nor understand, where did that come from?

Churchianity was a clique in my high school and I began to go to a youth group to be with my cool friends. Many heathens came to this youth group for it was hip and happenin'.

My parents moved to a Contemporary United Methodist Church which has since met Mega-Church status and has all the litmus in place to be charisamtic apart from how reserved and conservative the congregation of white collar Americans are.

I once loved this church, probably because the "stale" hymns of yesteryear were missing.
Low and behold this social club youth group I had been attending was EPC.
I remember in a private conversation with a couple of people from the youth group while a senior in high school. The topic was pre-destination, completely a foreign concept to me and naturally abrasive to my ears.

They were discussing Romans 9 and all I could think was "You're telling me that God has predestinded who is saved? What fairness is that!" my flesh cried.

Anyhow I was livid and hurt that those I trusted and had known for years would spring this on me.

I wrestled with it prior to college and wasn't around anyone reformed to discuss it so I kept it to myself.

I was set to go to my "Christian" college, Baylor University, and I arrived there to immediate disenchantment. I attended an emergent church where we watched movies basically, God in the Movies was the sermon series to my recollection, I never returned even as a filmmaker that put me off.

I was recruited by some charismatics, who are quite aggressive on campus, I didn't know what a charismatic was. They creeped me out quickly however.

About six weeks into college while trying to discuss predestination with Baylor Baptists and my Seventh Day Adventist roommate, I was reeling for the meaning of fulfilling fellowship and edifying church worship.

Finally I attended Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA), more traditional than I was accustomed but the pastor was excellent. I got involved with RUF, stayed. The RUF pastor held a study of the doctrines of grace at his house, I surrendered without a fight in fact I was one step ahead of him the whole study.

I became a Christian through the tender mercy of God, oh amazing grace, how sweet is the sound to save a wretch like me.

__________________
:detective:
Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

Oh Yes. Romans 9. That's the passage that Reformed my faith. The best answer that I could get from non-reformed pastors regarding the passage is that "it refers to earthly blessings for national Israel" Puleeeeeez.

In actuality, when one finally understands the doctrine of predestination, it gives greater comfort to the saints and increases the zeal for evangelism.

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Scott Kessler
Covenant Community OPC
Staunton, VA
Covenant Theology
Christian Skepticism
Christianity In History

Precisely, election is the hope of evangelism and prayer.
God's will cannot be denied, we need not trust our methodologies, only Christ and His precious gospel need to be proclaimed.
God does the rest and He will send His ministers to every tribe and nation to call His people by name like Lazarus from the tomb.

I first got introduced to this stream of Christianity about 6 years ago when I was looking up some things on the internet. Election, and indeed all five DOG, were not hard for me to accept, gvien that I knew my Methodist church was horribly deficient theologically.

I suppose it was actually an element of youthful rebellion that led me to the DOG, as both of my parents are adamantly anti-Calvinist.

When I got to college, a well-meaning intense Bible study leader on my campus with the local Baptist Student Ministries engaged everyone in the group in ultra-serious discussions about various theological concepts. His quirk was that of the 5 points, he denied U and I, but really was so incredibly variable and suffering the problems of theological self-education without any mentorship or guidance. Well, he did get me to thinking quite a bit about my theology.

I briefly considered confessional Lutheranism due to my best friend's attendance at a good local LCMS church. Ultimately I was unable to accept it, because I disagreed with their stand on the sacraments. During this time, I also tossed around the idea of going to a good Reformed Anglican church near the campus.

However, it wasn't until I'd been chewed up and spit out by 2 parachurch ministries (including a "Christian" fraternity") that I really was led to a crisis point in late 2005. I was so disgusted with evangelicalisma that I saw only two options: become unchurched and study alone or find the best Presbyterian church I could find, since that's where my doctrine was most noted.

The Doctrines of Grace were obviously important in the matter, but there are other non-Presby churches around that teach them. The real deal-sealers for me were in the Sacraments, Ecclesiology, the RPW (however badly practiced) and Confessionalism more specifically. These came at various times, but were utterly refreshing to behold, coming from "madhouse" Christianity like I was used to addressing.

Incidentally enough a Purpose-Driven Bible Study at the BSM 2+ years ago after it'd changed directors REALLY made me loathe broad evangelicalism's shallowness and narcissistic theology. I suppose many in my generation in my boat could also have ended up Eastern Orthodox (since that seems to be in vogue) or mystical Anglo-Catholic, but I'm grateful to God for Reformed Theology.

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Scott - Dallas, Texas - Faith OPC

"It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do." - Edmund Burke

To answer the original post, I actually became Reformed through eschatology. The "Y2K crisis" brought me to study the end times in greater depth. I could not find any Biblical consistency in what I was being taught, such as 1,000 years between resurrection and John 5:28-29, "this generation", etc.

After asking around for a good preterist commentary on Revelation, I read David Chilton's "Days of Vengeance". Not only is this the best commentary ever on Revelation, but is an excellent systematic theology of the Reformed Faith. That, and Roman 9 brought me around.

(Proverbs 16:4 didn't hurt either).