Of course we all agree.

So here is a thought.

Can you agree with? "All things work out bad for those who don't love Him".

All things work out badly for whom?

The Lord has weaved an intricate plan and he directs everyone and everything in this world. Ultimately, those who are not known by the Lord and do not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation are sentenced to Hell.

During an unbeliever's life, he may have "good" worldly things in the way of circumstances, possessions, etc., and things that person may do may benefit believers, so "all things work out badly" would be an inaccurate statement.

Is there a deeper question you are getting at?

Thanks!

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Mitch
Presbyterian Church of Coventry, CT (PCA)

I'll agree to 'The way of the transgressor is hard' :-)

We had a long discussion related to this recently here: God's Hatred

Prufrock linked to this excellent post by Rev. Winzer at comment 142 -- the argument of which is that's God's general love is effectual even to the wicked (so I find it difficult to state things in precisely the terms above, and don't find that Scripture does so?): http://www.puritanboard.com/532242-post41.html

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

Patience must dwell with Love, for Love and Sorrow
Have pitched their tent together here:
Love all alone will build a house tomorrow,
And sorrow not be near. -Christina Rossetti

I don't believe that God loves the unelect since the Bible states just the opposite, so I would have to agree to "All things work out bad for those who don't love Him". All the pleasures they experience on this earth will be a judgement against them in hell.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

All things work out bad for those who continue to not love him. Obviously, someone who does not love God now may come to a repentant faith just a short time later, totally changing the situation.

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Joshua F
Layman
Mountain View Community Church (Missionary Church Denomination)
Johnstown, CO

An important distinction to make would be that ultimately all things work to the reprobate's "bad" (i.e. destruction). However, the obvious temporal "good things of the earth," in one sense, are here for their creaturely comforts, (family, food, shelter) etc.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

As Joshua has made the distinction, it's an issue of how we define good. Assuming anything outside of Christ (saving grace, Rom 8:28) is utter hopelessness and ultimately
"bad" (i.e. destruction) then of course by implication God works bad for those who are not of Christ.

Nevertheless we are bound by our temporal and material view on things especially the way good is defined. That the rain is given to both the righteous and wicked is an example of how good things are given to all, so in this sense God doesn't work "bad" specifically but as Rev. Winzer says, His general love is effectual to all.

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Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

Potentially a helpful verse in working this one out:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." ~ John 3:36

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Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
WTS M.A.R. in Theology student
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
"Grace tried is better than grace, and more than grace. It is glory in its infancy." ~ John Flavel
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

Psalm 73 seems to support that idea.

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Jim
An Elder, Harvest Reformed Church (RCUS),Minot, ND
http://www.harvestreformedchurch.org/
http://tbftgoggi.wordpress.com/

Upon a life I did not live; upon a death I did not die, Another's death, Another's life, I'd rest my soul eternally
Omnia dicta fortiora,si dicta Latina
Si vis pacem, para bellum

For those that love God and are called according to His purposes, everything that happens in this life will be used for our ultimate blessing - both the blessings and the curses of this world will have been used of God for our good.

For those that hate God and remain in their rebellion, even the blessings in this life will ultimately be a curse to them. Romans 1:18ff, in fact, states as much because the wrath of God is poured out against all flesh that has received so much from the Hand of the Creator and yet is not thankful nor glorifying to Him for it.

__________________
Rich
PCA, Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

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Why do you say "that we are bound by our temporal and material view" when we can say "all things work out for good to those that love God"?

We have no problem extrapolating this with an eternal perspective...why not the other way around?

-----Added 8/19/2009 at 11:42:51 EST-----

You are correct I meant ultimately.

Now what will God do for all the ingratitude the reprobate showed towards His temporal good?

All of the temporal good simply serves to ripen them for judgment (Romans 9). This sobering truth, though, should make us all the more grateful for what God, in His mercy, has done for those who believe. Such a terrible truth ought to render in us:

1. Compassion for the lost (we know neither who are the elect or reprobate), in that if not for Christ's righteousness we would have the same plight.

2. A push for diligence in the duties with which God has commanded us, lest we be like the reprobate who spurn the kindness of God.

3. Dispel any sense of boasting or "uppity-ness" we might reserve for ourselves.

Perhaps my choice of words was not that accurate. We are accustomed to the temporal view. And those outside of Christ cannot extrapolate this with an eternal perspective.

So I take it "All things work out bad for those who don't "ultimatly" love Him" sounds OK to you.

-----Added 8/19/2009 at 12:03:44 EST-----


I was of course extrapolating for them.

by the way, welcome to the PB

I'm not really sure why you're trying to get me to say I agree 100% with the statement, when I'm just content to agree with what Scripture says. As for the statement above, I would change the ordering of some of the words.

"All things work out ultimately for the bad of those who have not been called according to God's purpose." That does not mean that while said things are lavished upon them in time that they are "bad" in time. It means that though they are good things within themselves, they serve a greater, ultimate purpose in God's decree.

[quote=Joshua;674463]Which is good for us and God but "ultimatly" bad for them.

I think what I am tring to say is that hidden blessings (bad things that turn out for our edification) can be called "grace" or "good" even though in the temporal sense they were bad.

So can we call the grace given to the repobate grace, if we agree that in the ultimate end it works out for their bad?

I don't think I have the proper vocabulary to express this, but surely punishment for sin is 'good'? It is good that sin should be punished and its effects stayed; justice is good, and what the unbeliever is experiencing is justice. I have a hard time talking about even -- or perhaps especially -- ultimate bad because the reality of all these negative experiences is a great ultimate good; and the unbeliever experiences that utterly positive thing even in punishment, though of course he has no enjoyment in the experience as he forsook true pleasure in other goods. I'm sure I don't express this very well. I just can't think of reality in those terms or see even fallen existence that way?

This made me laugh: I love Calvinists :-)

I am not one who will attach the term grace to God's temporal good toward the reprobate, simply because those things, though good in themselves, work toward the hardening of the reprobate's heart. I've yet to see Scripture define grace in that manner.

Oh Joy! You are seeing justice from God's point of view. Thank you so much for that. You are blessed indeed; but that we could share God's view more often.

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Paul
No denomination, affiliated with FIEC
"Deliver me from worldly dispositions, for I am born from above and destined for glory" - Valley of Vision
"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation" - Peter

Sarcasm?

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Earl
Northland Church
Orlando Florida

Perhaps this is the risk of not being taken seriously that Ronda spoke of :-).

Earl, could you explain more why you think that agreement with what I said must be sarcastic? (I know I don't say things in the best way: but I'm afraid it usually takes more than a one word response to clarify questions for me -- though you may just not have hit on the right word yet :-)

PS. Just to clarify: I'm not sure that we are able to see things 'from God's point of view' -- it's just that I have trouble seeing things as often expressed in these threads, as a human.

I thought you were right on. My post was directed towards dr parsley.

Not at all.

Sometimes the written word just does not avail one to understand intent till we get to know each other in a fuller sense.

Unless you're going to redefine "grace" I don't see how it could be called "grace".

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
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I don't understand this...

Exactly.

Temporal good providence it is.

This thread keeps getting distracted by my mis-communications -- I'm sorry. I just thought it enjoyable that the embracing smiley followed on agreement that all things were going to work out badly for the wicked. (only Calvinists . . . :-)