The PuritanBoard  

Go Back   The PuritanBoard > Theology > Theological Forum

Theological Forum Systematic Theology, Biblical Theology and just plain Theology discussions
Grow in the grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pe. 3:18)

» Online Users: 53
7 members and 46 guests
Blueridge Baptist, donzetta, J.C. Philpot, jonmo, PuritanBouncer, Ron Henzel, satz
Most users ever online was 856, 07-06-2007 at 12:19 AM.
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2008, 11:25 PM
Puritanboard Freshman
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Vallejo, CA
Posts: 446
Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Adam's ability to sin

Why did God give Adam the ability to sin? I once heard an answer to this question and I thought that it was weak. The answer goes like this: If God did not give Adam the ability to sin, then Adam would have been a robot and he would not have been able to love God genuinely.

That answer is weak because Jesus does not have the ability to sin and He is not a robot. He has a genuine love for God the Father. The saints in heaven do not have the ability to sin and they are not robots either. They have a genuine love for God. Moreover, even if a person did not have the ability to sin, God could give that person the desire to love God and the ability to act according to his desires.
__________________
Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following User Says Thank You to cih1355 For This Useful Post:
moral necessity (02-10-2008)
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2008, 11:40 PM
North Jersey Baptist's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Gambrills, MD
Posts: 6,565
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 716
Thanked 768 Times in 452 Posts
Curt, Adam was born posse peccare, posse non peccare (able to sin, able not to sin). Adam was a true moral free agent who possessed an unencumbered free will. Adam was created and placed in the garden and given a task:

Quote:
Genesis 1:26 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
In addition to the purpose for which he was created Adam was given a command that prohibited him from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

Quote:
Genesis 2:16-17 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
The implication is that Adam had the ability to obey or disobey. If Adam was created non posse peccare (not able to sin) then there would have been no reason for God to give this prohibition.

Why did God give Adam this ability, to sin or not to sin? By exercising his free will Adam would glorify God by his obedience. This is the essence of the covenant of works. It is also what the Arminian believes free will to be like today. It dispels the notion that God created Adam to be a moral and spiritual robot.
__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2008, 12:36 AM
Puritanboard Sophomore
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mountain Lake Park, MD
Posts: 666
Thanks: 200
Thanked 140 Times in 98 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cih1355 View Post
Why did God give Adam the ability to sin? I once heard an answer to this question and I thought that it was weak. The answer goes like this: If God did not give Adam the ability to sin, then Adam would have been a robot and he would not have been able to love God genuinely.

That answer is weak because Jesus does not have the ability to sin and He is not a robot. He has a genuine love for God the Father. The saints in heaven do not have the ability to sin and they are not robots either. They have a genuine love for God. Moreover, even if a person did not have the ability to sin, God could give that person the desire to love God and the ability to act according to his desires.
Excellent perception! Discern first where the source of all goodness is and abides, and you are on your way to solving your puzzle.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Could you explain it a little more.

Blessings!
__________________
Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2008, 08:57 AM
Puritanboard Freshman
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Vallejo, CA
Posts: 446
Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by moral necessity View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cih1355 View Post
Why did God give Adam the ability to sin? I once heard an answer to this question and I thought that it was weak. The answer goes like this: If God did not give Adam the ability to sin, then Adam would have been a robot and he would not have been able to love God genuinely.

That answer is weak because Jesus does not have the ability to sin and He is not a robot. He has a genuine love for God the Father. The saints in heaven do not have the ability to sin and they are not robots either. They have a genuine love for God. Moreover, even if a person did not have the ability to sin, God could give that person the desire to love God and the ability to act according to his desires.
Excellent perception! Discern first where the source of all goodness is and abides, and you are on your way to solving your puzzle.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Could you explain it a little more.

Blessings!
Some people think that if you did not have the ability to sin, then you would be forced to love God. My response is that if a person has the desire to love God and acts according to that desire, then he would not be forced to love God.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2008, 01:07 PM
Puritanboard Sophomore
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mountain Lake Park, MD
Posts: 666
Thanks: 200
Thanked 140 Times in 98 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cih1355 View Post
Some people think that if you did not have the ability to sin, then you would be forced to love God. My response is that if a person has the desire to love God and acts according to that desire, then he would not be forced to love God.
Right! I ask them, "Does God have the ability to sin?" The answer is "no". Since he is limited to only doing good, does this mean that we praise him any less? Rather, he deserves more praise because he can only do good. Also, since Christ was not able to sin, was not he then limited to only love God? Of course.

The point is, we are limited or forced to act according to our nature. God is limited or forced to do good because his nature is good. So is Christ.

Is a dog a robot because it can only bark, and not meow? Is a cat a robot for a similar reason? No, we act according to our nature. So, when it comes to Adam, this is the tricky issue to resolve. What was Adam's nature?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2008, 02:12 PM
Jeff_Bartel's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 3,767
Thanks: 64
Thanked 50 Times in 39 Posts
This question is akin to the question "Why did God permit the fall to happen?"

I think that some caution should be used, as only God can give a full answer to this (the question being part of his secret will). That being said, I think that some deductions can be made, although maybe not enough to satisfy some curious minds.

1) God willed the fall to happen. He predestined it, and designed the plan of salvation to bring us out of it.

2) Why did he do this? The only safe answer I can think of is for his own glory.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." [7]
Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
Rom 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it , "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
__________________
Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jeff_Bartel For This Useful Post:
Daniel Ritchie (02-10-2008), moral necessity (02-10-2008)
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0 ©2008, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2002-2008 PuritanBoard.com
Hosted by WebsiteMaven - helping ministries with web hosting advice, reviews, and design.
Westminster Abbey © Confessional Presbyterian Presses - used with permission.
Add Our Custom Button to your Google Toolbar

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64