Thread: Submission in Matters of Justified Conscience

Originally Posted by sjonee

Also, even if I agreed with EP, I still have to submit to my pastor and sing what he instructs the congregation to sing.

Okay, let's assume that EP is correct/biblical. Then, by implication, the singing of anything else, is not correct/biblical. So, you think you should submit to a Pastor even if what he's commanding is not correct/biblical? I suppose, then, you'd have no problem if he commanded you to observe the "church calendar"?

Originally Posted by Joshua

Originally Posted by sjonee

Also, even if I agreed with EP, I still have to submit to my pastor and sing what he instructs the congregation to sing.

Okay, let's assume that EP is correct/biblical. Then, by implication, the singing of anything else, is not correct/biblical. So, you think you should submit to a Pastor even if what he's commanding is not correct/biblical? I suppose, then, you'd have no problem if he commanded you to observe the "church calendar"?

I really don't know, Joshua. God has given me my pastor to be my covering. If he is wrong about hymns, he does it out of ignorance just like others do baptism incorrectly out of ignorance. Where should I go to worship? It took me forever to find my church which I love dearly. Should I not submit to my pastor? That seems wrong to me.

Originally Posted by Joshua

Originally Posted by sjonee

Also, even if I agreed with EP, I still have to submit to my pastor and sing what he instructs the congregation to sing.

Okay, let's assume that EP is correct/biblical. Then, by implication, the singing of anything else, is not correct/biblical. So, you think you should submit to a Pastor even if what he's commanding is not correct/biblical? I suppose, then, you'd have no problem if he commanded you to observe the "church calendar"?

I've thought about this, too. I'm currently a non-EPer in an EP congregation, but I'm not firmly convinced of either position. I would say that I'm divided something like 25% and 75% between EP and non-EP. If the balance should shift (as it plausibly may, after more time in an EP congregation) to something like 60% EP and 40% non-EP, could I still in good conscience submit to the judgment of a non-EP session at another church and sing hymns? I think I could, as long as I still thought both positions were biblically plausible. But at some point -- if, for example, I was 90% convinced of EP -- I would have to refrain from singing hymns. All that to say: I think it's a sliding scale.

Originally Posted by sjonee

Originally Posted by Joshua

Originally Posted by sjonee

Also, even if I agreed with EP, I still have to submit to my pastor and sing what he instructs the congregation to sing.

Okay, let's assume that EP is correct/biblical. Then, by implication, the singing of anything else, is not correct/biblical. So, you think you should submit to a Pastor even if what he's commanding is not correct/biblical? I suppose, then, you'd have no problem if he commanded you to observe the "church calendar"?

I really don't know, Joshua. God has given me my pastor to be my covering. If he is wrong about hymns, he does it out of ignorance just like others do baptism incorrectly out of ignorance. Where should I go to worship? It took me forever to find my church which I love dearly. Should I not submit to my pastor? That seems wrong to me.

Sarah, first let me clarify some things:

1. I'm not implying that you should necessarily go elsewhere to worship.
2. I think your pastor would probably be understanding in true/justified matters of conscience.

As an anecdotal support, I used to be a member of a non-EP Church. I think the godly process would be this:

Approach the elders with humility and teachableness. Tell them the case of your conscience. Since I believe EP is both confessional and couched comfortably in the History of the Reformed Faith, that your pastor would understand and be sensitive to your conscience.

So, I'm not telling you to go elsewhere, necessarily, but I am saying that you should be free, if you believed EP, to not sing in cases of uninspired hymnody.

Approach the elders with humility and teachableness. Tell them the case of your conscience. Since I believe EP is both confessional and couched comfortably in the History of the Reformed Faith, that your pastor would understand and be sensitive to your conscience.

So, I'm not telling you to go elsewhere, necessarily, but I am saying that you should be free, if you believed EP, to not sing in cases of uninspired hymnody.

For what it's worth this is what I did and as a result I simply stand there during the singing of the hymns during the corporate worship service. There are times that we do sing from the Psalter (much to my delight) and it is at that point that I participate.

I also stand in silence during the singing of non-inspired texts. The elders and minister are aware of my convictions. It is a blessing that my congregation is predominately Psalm-singing. We have been told that the consistory understands the URCNA church order to mandate a predominance of psalms in worship.

I sit during parts of the service I cannot participate in with a clear conscience; but readily stand and sing when it is a psalm. What we need to avoid is an implicit faith; which is what I think we end up with if we simply do what the pastor says because he's the pastor. WCF 20.2.

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

I sit during parts of the service I cannot participate in with a clear conscience; but readily stand and sing when it is a psalm. What we need to avoid is an implicit faith; which is what I think we end up with if we simply do what the pastor says because he's the pastor. WCF 20.2.

I definitely agree with this; my position above was more along the lines of, "When I am unsure of what to think about a difficult issue, I am comfortable deferring to my pastor."