Thread: Musical Instruments in Worship

Greetings:

Musical Instruments in the Worship of God are forbidden.

Yes or No. Why or Why not?

OK. I'll bite. It's hard to ignore Psalm 150.

I believe that they are forbidden. My reason can be found briefly here

Not forbidden, but fulfilled. We don't use instruments anymore for the same reason we don't slice open goats and cows. Because Jesus fulfilled it all. Every part of the sacrificial system was wrapped up in the cross; we continue only those parts specifically commanded in the new covenant.

So, forbidden? Yes, but by way of fulifillment.

What he said.

Originally Posted by jolivetti

Not forbidden, but fulfilled. We don't use instruments anymore for the same reason we don't slice open goats and cows. Because Jesus fulfilled it all. Every part of the sacrificial system was wrapped up in the cross; we continue only those parts specifically commanded in the new covenant.

So, forbidden? Yes, but by way of fulifillment.

huh???

I allow for musical instruments now but am unsure about this doctrine. I am looking forward to seeing this thread continue.

am unsure about this doctrine. I am looking forward to seeing this thread continue.

Pretty much what I meant when I said..."huh?"

Originally Posted by jolivetti

Not forbidden, but fulfilled. We don't use instruments anymore for the same reason we don't slice open goats and cows. Because Jesus fulfilled it all. Every part of the sacrificial system was wrapped up in the cross; we continue only those parts specifically commanded in the new covenant.

So, forbidden? Yes, but by way of fulifillment.

I'm unclear about how the use of instruments are fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore no longer to be a part of the worship service. Can somebody expand upon that? Its pretty clear how the sacrificing of animals was a type of and fulfilled by Jesus, but the playing of timbrel and stringed instruments? What did they represent and how were they fulfilled by Jesus?

Gen. 4 - Musical Instruments are a cultural expression...

Originally Posted by blhowes

...but the playing of timbrel and stringed instruments? What did they represent and how were they fulfilled by Jesus?

Originally Posted by Wythe County Calvinist

Originally Posted by blhowes

...but the playing of timbrel and stringed instruments? What did they represent and how were they fulfilled by Jesus?

Within worship the only instruments allowed were psaltries, harps and cymbols. The timbrels were used during civil celebrations for national deliverance and were accompanied by women dancing.

Turn to 2 Chronicles 29:25-30 which reads “And he [Hezekiah] set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished. And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped. Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.”

Notice that the instruments were used “until the burnt offering was finished” and when the offering was over the music stopped “the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped” without instruments and at this time “Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer” i.e. acapella or without instruments. This demonstrates that the instruments in temple worship was specifically to do with the sacrifice, musical instruments were a part of the sacrificial system of Israel. Therefore with the ending of the old sacrificial system by the death of Christ the use of instruments in worship ceased and so the church did not use musical instruments for hundreds upon hundreds of years.


This is a good article as is this

These are good sermons.

Doesn't Augustine argue that the diversity of musical instruments was fulfilled in the diversity of languages that now sing God's praises? Do any modern non-instrumental folks still use that argument?

St Clement of Alexandria writing in 190 AD states

"Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they are more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: 'Praise Him with sound of trumpet," for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; praise Him with harp,' for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; 'and with the lute praise Him.' understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; 'praise Him with timbal and choir,' that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; 'praise Him with strings and organ,' calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for front them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; 'praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,' which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, 'Let every spirit praise the Lord,' because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions. The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we a homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ."

Eusebius the “Father of Church History” who lived between 260 AD and 341 AD wrote

"Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."

If I can't do a bass solo, then no one gets to play.

Originally Posted by AV1611

Eusebius the “Father of Church History” who lived between 260 AD and 341 AD wrote

"Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."

Honestly, this is almost silly. If the instruments are mere shadows of something else, then why aren't the voices in the Old Testament mere shadows of something else? Where in the New Testament does it tell us that we are to sing out loud in corporate worship?

The function of music in our worship, is to assist the congregation in their singing of praise. It is the singing of hymns, psalms and spiritual songs that is an element in our worship. Music, on the other hand, is a circumstance of our worship. Just as the sound system helps us to hear the word preached in a large church, music helps us to sing together by keeping us harmonized and in tune. Whether we use a piano an organ or a guitar to assist us in our singing is incidental, the important thing is that our music be reverent, decent, and orderly and that it support our singing rather than overpowering or undermining it. In the modern world, in a non-singing age, it is almost impossible to keep a large congregation made up of experienced Christians, new converts and visitors, singing in harmony without the use of an instrument.

That said, worship is not a form of entertainment, neither is worship something that a few do on behalf of the congregation. Congregational singing should be something we all joyfully do together. Therefore, if our worship is to be founded entirely on the precepts of scripture, then it will not include choirs or soloists.

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

That said, worship is not a form of entertainment, neither is worship something that a few do on behalf of the congregation. Congregational singing should be something we all joyfully do together. Therefore, if our worship is to be founded entirely on the precepts of scripture, then it will not include choirs or soloists.

Mark Dever refuses to have a choir or soloists because they tend to become a performance. He does use a praise team of 4 people (one a guitarist) that stand off to the side and a piano player. He does it for the purpose of emphasizing congregational singing. Having been to his church a few times, I dare say it is achieved.

We haven't had a soloist in 4 years, ever since our music minister left and I ended up taking over the music.

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

In the modern world, in a non-singing age, it is almost impossible to keep a large congregation made up of experienced Christians, new converts and visitors, singing in harmony without the use of an instrument.

It can be difficult in a small congregation too! But it is certainly not impossible. I have often experienced it done with great effect. Those who are persauded out of conviction that there should not be instruments simply find ways to make it work, including training and practice. If you train your whole congregation to sing well a capella then it will not be such a huge problem if a few visitors are present. Visitors and newer converts will usually follow along with what the congregation is doing and learn as they go. We certainly won't be able to solve this question by appeals to experience.

[QUOTE=ADKing;303544]

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

We certainly won't be able to solve this question by appeals to experience.

As with almost any issue related to worship, the appeals to experience and pragmatics which one often hears show that the understanding and cherishing of the Regulative Principle are on a down-swing in general.

So, again I ask, if musical instruments are but a shadow in the Old Testament, why are voices not but a shadow as well?

Where in the New Testament are we commanded to sing out loud in public worship?

Greetings:

I think the best argument from Scripture is that the Musical Instruments in the Old Testament were a matter of the Levitical Priests and Temple worship. Only the Levites were allowed to play inistruments in the Temple worship. When the Priesthood of Christ came (of the order of Melchisidec SP?) the Levitical priesthood was done away. When the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD so were the Temple instruments.

The New Testament Church was founded not on the Temple worship, but upon the synagogue style: Preaching the Word, Prayer, and singing a cappella. (Schaff, Philip History of the Christian Church, vol. 1 pg. 455). Synagogue worship did not include instruments because they were considered part of the ceremonial worship in the Temple.

What is surprising is the unanimous testimony of the Church from Justyn Martyr to C.H. Spurgeon that musical instruments should not be used in worship today. Godly men, who would differ on other subjects, spoke with one voice through all of history concerning no musical instruments in worship. These included men like: Athanasius, Chrysostom, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Zwingli, Calvin, the Puritans, the Dutch, the Hugenots, the Scottish Covenanters (yea!), the American Pilgrim Fathers, William Romaine, Thomast Boston, Isaac Watts, C.H. Spurgeon (already mentioned), and D.M. Lloyd-Jones.

The exceptions to this rule are: Roman Catholics, most Lutherans, and most Anglicans (Richard Baxter, for example, did not believe in musical instruments).

In Jesus,

-CH

Originally Posted by AV1611

Within worship the only instruments allowed were psaltries, harps and cymbols. The timbrels were used during civil celebrations for national deliverance and were accompanied by women dancing.

Turn to 2 Chronicles 29:25-30 which reads “And he [Hezekiah] set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished. And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped. Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.”

Notice that the instruments were used “until the burnt offering was finished” and when the offering was over the music stopped “the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped” without instruments and at this time “Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer” i.e. acapella or without instruments. This demonstrates that the instruments in temple worship was specifically to do with the sacrifice, musical instruments were a part of the sacrificial system of Israel. Therefore with the ending of the old sacrificial system by the death of Christ the use of instruments in worship ceased and so the church did not use musical instruments for hundreds upon hundreds of years.


This is a good article as is this

These are good sermons.

Thank you. I will certainly check out the articles when I have more time. I had never heard this particular argument before, so I will have to do some reading on it.

Though, for the record, I must state that I have yet to come across any argument that has convienced me of (i.e. bound my conscience) either EP or non-instrumental singing. But as always, I will seriously and prayerfully consider views that oppose my own, as long as they are accompanied by Scripture and well reasoned. How esle would you explain a "card carrying independent fundamental premil dispensational Baptist" coming to realize that the Reformed Faith, or if you prefer, CT is the faith of the Bible?

Hello David,

[QUOTE=CarolinaCalvinist;303557]

Originally Posted by ADKing

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

We certainly won't be able to solve this question by appeals to experience.

As with almost any issue related to worship, the appeals to experience and pragmatics which one often hears show that the understanding and cherishing of the Regulative Principle are on a down-swing in general.

Well its always good to finally be someplace where I'm accused of not liking the RPW as opposed to the norm of being accused of over-venerating it. I'm new and still figuring the board out, does this kind of let me assess the condition of your heart because you aren't convinced of my position on a worship circumstance fly around a lot in here? Can I ask how you'd react if I assumed you didn't understand or cherish biblical eccelesiology because you remain in a denomination that ordains women to the office of deacon? (I don't assume that at all, but I wouldn't personally be able to stay in a denom that had female officers)

David, I would assume that we both agree that congregational singing is a commanded element of worship. You'd also have to assume that because it is singing, music is involved:

Music - "the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both"

Music is therefore a necessary circumstance of singing, do you have singing without music? Not unless you have singing that is devoid of melody and harmony. Which is seldom if ever the case - even chants have a melody. The question is, in producing and organizing the music that is part and parcel of singing may we use an instrument other than simply the human voice? To me the question is akin to may I use electrical amplification in order that my relatively weak preaching voice might be heard instead of shouting myself hoarse? To which I would answer, yes as this is simply a necessary circumstance to assist with the element of preaching.

When we use an instrument to assist in singing we are not ADDING an element to the worship like say a liturgical dance routine, neither are we making the circumstance an element by having the instruments played by themselves and not simply assisting with another element as say a flute or harp solo would be.

Finally, please feel free to dismiss this out of hand as pragmatism if you wish. When it comes to visitors to conservative Reformed churches, the preaching of the whole gospel is going to be an offense to them, and a worship services that honors the RPW is going to be profoundly countercultural and weird, but those offences are necessary, and in some senses we should glory in them.

But on the other hand, my experience is that one of the reasons the majority of our visitors "don't stick" is that we add unnecessary hurdles and offenses to the necessary ones. Just one of the many we can add is not helping them to sing, they don't know the psalms and hymns we sing, and 9 times out of 10 they are embarrassed at the train wreck sound they produce trying to follow along accapella especially when they are sure everyone can hear them. Yes you can train a small congregation of committed Christians to sing accappella but you see there is far too much assumption that that is all that our congregations will ever be - the same small group of committed Christians and their kids that we started with plus perhaps a few heroic types who fought their way in. It's part of the reason why the majority of our church plants fail - we act like we are going to be working with the same group of committed Christians and do little or nothing to help or accomodate the outsiders we are supposed to want to convert.

Yes, the Broadly evangelical churches have too much milk and little or no meat at all, so the congregation remain eternal babes, but we on the other hand too often take up the reverse policy and never provide any milk and then are surprised and depressed that babies reject a steak diet.

Originally Posted by Calvibaptist

So, again I ask, if musical instruments are but a shadow in the Old Testament, why are voices not but a shadow as well?

Where in the New Testament are we commanded to sing out loud in public worship?

Well, we have commands to teach and admonish one another (which implies corporate and public worship) and we are told to do it by singing. Don't the two together tell us to do it out loud?

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16).

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

Finally, please feel free to dismiss this out of hand as pragmatism if you wish. When it comes to visitors to conservative Reformed churches, the preaching of the whole gospel is going to be an offense to them, and a worship services that honors the RPW is going to be profoundly countercultural and weird, but those offences are necessary, and in some senses we should glory in them.

But on the other hand, my experience is that one of the reasons the majority of our visitors "don't stick" is that we add unnecessary hurdles and offenses to the necessary ones. Just one of the many we can add is not helping them to sing, they don't know the psalms and hymns we sing, and 9 times out of 10 they are embarrassed at the train wreck sound they produce trying to follow along accapella especially when they are sure everyone can hear them. Yes you can train a small congregation of committed Christians to sing accappella but you see there is far too much assumption that that is all that our congregations will ever be - the same small group of committed Christians and their kids that we started with plus perhaps a few heroic types who fought their way in. It's part of the reason why the majority of our church plants fail - we act like we are going to be working with the same group of committed Christians and do little or nothing to help or accomodate the outsiders we are supposed to want to convert.

Yes, the Broadly evangelical churches have too much milk and little or no meat at all, so the congregation remain eternal babes, but we on the other hand too often take up the reverse policy and never provide any milk and then are surprised and depressed that babies reject a steak diet.

Originally Posted by Wythe County Calvinist

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

Finally, please feel free to dismiss this out of hand as pragmatism if you wish. When it comes to visitors to conservative Reformed churches, the preaching of the whole gospel is going to be an offense to them, and a worship services that honors the RPW is going to be profoundly countercultural and weird, but those offences are necessary, and in some senses we should glory in them.

But on the other hand, my experience is that one of the reasons the majority of our visitors "don't stick" is that we add unnecessary hurdles and offenses to the necessary ones. Just one of the many we can add is not helping them to sing, they don't know the psalms and hymns we sing, and 9 times out of 10 they are embarrassed at the train wreck sound they produce trying to follow along accapella especially when they are sure everyone can hear them. Yes you can train a small congregation of committed Christians to sing accappella but you see there is far too much assumption that that is all that our congregations will ever be - the same small group of committed Christians and their kids that we started with plus perhaps a few heroic types who fought their way in. It's part of the reason why the majority of our church plants fail - we act like we are going to be working with the same group of committed Christians and do little or nothing to help or accomodate the outsiders we are supposed to want to convert.

Yes, the Broadly evangelical churches have too much milk and little or no meat at all, so the congregation remain eternal babes, but we on the other hand too often take up the reverse policy and never provide any milk and then are surprised and depressed that babies reject a steak diet.

I completely agree. Thanks, Andy! Maybe this post should make it to the blog?

Originally Posted by victorbravo

Originally Posted by Calvibaptist

So, again I ask, if musical instruments are but a shadow in the Old Testament, why are voices not but a shadow as well?

Where in the New Testament are we commanded to sing out loud in public worship?

Well, we have commands to teach and admonish one another (which implies corporate and public worship) and we are told to do it by singing. Don't the two together tell us to do it out loud?

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16).

My point was that these two passages (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16) tell us that we are to speak, teach and admonish one another. The singing is said to take place in your hearts, not out loud.

Musical instruments should be used in worship. I am fully aware of the argument that in Ephesians 5:19, the breakdown psalms, hymns and spiritual songs could refer to three different types of psalms in the book of Psalms. This of course is a plausible argument; however, there is another possible interpretation of the passage, that I think has been overlooked many times.

When I looked up the word "psalmos" which is the Greek word used for psalms, I came across two possible meanings when it is used in the plural form. It can be mean the Book of Psalms (as in Luke 20:42, 24:44) or it can mean to strike with the fingers (as in playing an instrument) as in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. The word can be translated either way, but the books I consulted agreed that the word in Ephesians and Colossians refers to the second meaning, since hymns are songs sung without an accompaniment, psalms are those sung to musical accompaniment. This interpretation is based on the fact that the word "psalmos" comes from the root Greek word "psallos" which means to play a stringed instrument. Also, the word "melody" in Ephesians is the word "psallos". The word "singing" means just that singing. I think it is interesting that the apostle Paul to chose the Greek word "psallos" (playing a stringed instrument) in this verse rather than just saying "singing in your heart to the Lord". To a Greek reading Ephesians or Colossians in that day, they would have immediately thought of singing with musical accompaniment, particularly stringed instruments.

There are numerous ways that the Spirit of God could have led the apostle Paul to write this verse. He could have said worship only from the book of Psalms or He could have said sing to yourselves the word of God. Instead He carefully chose words that would include all aspects of music, singing unaccompanied, singing the Word of God, singing with instruments, and spiritual songs. He also bothered to tell us how we should approach music in worship.

It is true that musicians and their instruments in worship can be a terrible distraction. When they are, they along with their instruments should be asked to step down. Instrumentation used in worship is there to support the singing, that is, make it easier to sing. As a musician myself (yes, I am biased), I have seen musical accompaniment enrich the singing. We tend to forget that the scripture does not say worship God with songs, it says, "teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" The purpose of music in worship is not only to adore our Lord, but also to help us learn the Scriptures better.

A word to musicians here: We, those of us who believe that musical instruments should be used in worship, must take Colossians 3:12-17 very seriously:

12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


When we are playing our instruments (or singing) in worship whether alone or in a group, we must put on compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, patience and love. and be thankful. The Word of Christ should dwell in us richly before we ever try to lead others in worship.

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

Originally Posted by Wythe County Calvinist

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

Finally, please feel free to dismiss this out of hand as pragmatism if you wish. When it comes to visitors to conservative Reformed churches, the preaching of the whole gospel is going to be an offense to them, and a worship services that honors the RPW is going to be profoundly countercultural and weird, but those offences are necessary, and in some senses we should glory in them.

But on the other hand, my experience is that one of the reasons the majority of our visitors "don't stick" is that we add unnecessary hurdles and offenses to the necessary ones. Just one of the many we can add is not helping them to sing, they don't know the psalms and hymns we sing, and 9 times out of 10 they are embarrassed at the train wreck sound they produce trying to follow along accapella especially when they are sure everyone can hear them. Yes you can train a small congregation of committed Christians to sing accappella but you see there is far too much assumption that that is all that our congregations will ever be - the same small group of committed Christians and their kids that we started with plus perhaps a few heroic types who fought their way in. It's part of the reason why the majority of our church plants fail - we act like we are going to be working with the same group of committed Christians and do little or nothing to help or accomodate the outsiders we are supposed to want to convert.

Yes, the Broadly evangelical churches have too much milk and little or no meat at all, so the congregation remain eternal babes, but we on the other hand too often take up the reverse policy and never provide any milk and then are surprised and depressed that babies reject a steak diet.

I completely agree. Thanks, Andy! Maybe this post should make it to the blog?

Greetings:

In Post #23 Wyeth County Calvinist demands Biblical evidence for the forbidding of musical instruments in Public worship. But, then he "amens" an argument that does not have a shred of Biblical evidence to it, and is simply "practical" in nature?

Is that what Reformed worship is about? That if it is "practical" it is correct? Seagoon, Fred Greco, what happened to the Bible in your views? Are we to adhere to your tradition minus the Scriptures?

You claim that forbidding musical instruments and singing a cappella is an "unnecessary hurdle"? Unnecessary to whom? God? Man? Yourself? There is a matter concerning worship that is forgotten here.

Preaching the Word is not "worship." Praying is not "worship." Singing the Psalms a cappella is not "worship." Singing a hymn to an electric guitar is not "worship." Taking the Sacraments is not "worship." Rev. Dr. Judson Cornwall writes:

Worship predates music, for Adam worshipped God in the garden of Eden, although music is not mentioned until the birth of Jubal (see Genesis 4:21), and even king David kept music as subsidiary to worship. This very fact establishes the truth that music in itself is not worship. No musical instrument is "an instrument of worship"; it may assist the musician in his worship, but worship cannot be mechanical or inanimate. Worship is a person's spirit responding to God's Spirit, not a horn sounding musical tones throughout an auditorium. The same principle pertains to choir anthems, orchestral presentations, solos, or ensemble vocal songs sung at Christian gatherings ... Far too frequently they are artistic performances that draw more attention to the musician(s) than to God Himself. Cornwall, Judson, Elements of Worship, (Bridge Publishing, Inc., South Plainfield, NJ, 1985), pgs., 129-130.

Worship is in Spirit and in Truth, as Jesus says. It is the uniting of the Spirit of God with the heart of man. It is not spirit only - for that would be enthusiasm. It is not in Truth only - for that would be dead orthodoxy. It is Spirit and Truth. The Spirit does not work "outside" of the Truth.

Now, musical instruments are either a matter of the true worship of God, or, they are not. Does anyone have a Biblical argument for musical instruments and not simply a practical one?

J. Baldwin:

I would like to see your reference. Because Strong's disagrees with your assessment of psalmos. The Psalms were sung without musical instruments in the synagogue worship services. According to Strong: psallo means to "play a musical instrument." The psalms could be accompanied "with a voice, harp. or other instrument" but this is referring back to the Temple worship, and not to the synagogue.

Good point.

-CH
Blessings,

-CH

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

Preaching the Word is not "worship." Praying is not "worship." Singing the Psalms a cappella is not "worship." Singing a hymn to an electric guitar is not "worship." Taking the Sacraments is not "worship."

And, yet, we are commanded to do all these things (except maybe the electric guitar) during corporate worship.

Rev. Dr. Judson Cornwall writes:

Worship predates music, for Adam worshipped God in the garden of Eden, although music is not mentioned until the birth of Jubal (see Genesis 4:21), and even king David kept music as subsidiary to worship.

I respectfully disagree with Rev. Cornwall. Instruments are not mentioned until Genesis 4. But music was present at the creation (a metaphorical reference at least in Job 38:7).

This very fact establishes the truth that music in itself is not worship. No musical instrument is "an instrument of worship"; it may assist the musician in his worship, but worship cannot be mechanical or inanimate. Worship is a person's spirit responding to God's Spirit, not a horn sounding musical tones throughout an auditorium. The same principle pertains to choir anthems, orchestral presentations, solos, or ensemble vocal songs sung at Christian gatherings ... Far too frequently they are artistic performances that draw more attention to the musician(s) than to God Himself. Cornwall, Judson, Elements of Worship, (Bridge Publishing, Inc., South Plainfield, NJ, 1985), pgs., 129-130.

Worship is in Spirit and in Truth, as Jesus says. It is the uniting of the Spirit of God with the heart of man. It is not spirit only - for that would be enthusiasm. It is not in Truth only - for that would be dead orthodoxy. It is Spirit and Truth. The Spirit does not work "outside" of the Truth.

I don't necessarily mind the rest of his quote, as long as we are clear that God requires certain elements to accompany (not in the musical sense) His worship.

Now, musical instruments are either a matter of the true worship of God, or, they are not. Does anyone have a Biblical argument for musical instruments and not simply a practical one?

Since there is ample biblical evidence of musical instruments used in the Old Covenant, and there is a continuity in the covenants, does anyone have a Biblical argument against musical instruments?

Sister Baldwin - I concur completely. Well said. This coming from someone who's musical talent is next to nil.

Originally Posted by CH

The Psalms were sung without musical instruments in the synagogue worship services.

Curious: Can you give a definitive historical reference for this assertion?

Submitted humbly and respectfully....

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

In Post #23 Wyeth County Calvinist demands Biblical evidence for the forbidding of musical instruments in Public worship. But, then he "amens" an argument that does not have a shred of Biblical evidence to it, and is simply "practical" in nature?

I would not presume to demand anything from the members of this board.

Please notice that in the same post sited I also said....

Though, for the record, I must state that I have yet to come across any argument that has convinced me of (i.e. bound my conscience) either EP or non-instrumental singing. But as always, I will seriously and prayerfully consider views that oppose my own, as long as they are accompanied by Scripture and well reasoned.

(Emphasis added this time.)

I'm only asking for more information and scripture for personal study. If the last 10 years of my Christian life have taught me anything, it is that I don't have all the answers sewed up in a bag, and certainly never will this side of glory.

IMO, the Ephesians 5:19 passage is sufficient Biblical grounds to allow for a non-EP and therefore a non-a cappella use of music in worship. But never having come across the argument that AV1611 referenced in his post I thought it the better part of wisdom to enquirer about it and to study this issue from that point of argument. Again, so that I might have a chance to reassess my own conclusions on the matter. I thought I worded my reply in post #23 so as to indicate that.

I do not seek contention, only an atmosphere where I can interact and learn from the brethren.

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

Yes, the Broadly evangelical churches have too much milk and little or no meat at all, so the congregation remain eternal babes, but we on the other hand too often take up the reverse policy and never provide any milk and then are surprised and depressed that babies reject a steak diet.

you guys better not let Brian Schwertley see you arguing on behalf of musical instruments He will create new adjectives for you

Hi Rob,

This is your particular hobby horse, not mine, clearly the poll was designed to provoke yet another discussion of a position that you have made your up about long ago and I'm not getting the impression that you are hearing me. You presume that anyone who has a musical instrument in a worship service believes that instrumental music is an element of worship I have stated repeatedly that I do not believe it is an element. I approve of the use of an instrument as a circumstance to assist in congregational singing, just as a pitch pipe is also a musical instrument used as a circumstance to assist in congregational singing. I don't personally believe that the Apostles had "harp solos" in the Apostolic church, however I don't think they would have gone ballistic over the news that someone in a gentile church used a harp to accompany the singing of their congregation. Clearly, merely using an instrument to accompany singing was not inherently sinful in the Old Testament, or I might add, the New:

"Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (Rev. 5:8-10)

Rob, can you explain to me why this issue is so important to you that you bring it up as a subject for argument again and again?

Originally Posted by Calvibaptist

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

Preaching the Word is not "worship." Praying is not "worship." Singing the Psalms a cappella is not "worship." Singing a hymn to an electric guitar is not "worship." Taking the Sacraments is not "worship."

And, yet, we are commanded to do all these things (except maybe the electric guitar) during corporate worship.

Rev. Dr. Judson Cornwall writes:

I respectfully disagree with Rev. Cornwall. Instruments are not mentioned until Genesis 4. But music was present at the creation (a metaphorical reference at least in Job 38:7).

Worship is in Spirit and in Truth, as Jesus says. It is the uniting of the Spirit of God with the heart of man. It is not spirit only - for that would be enthusiasm. It is not in Truth only - for that would be dead orthodoxy. It is Spirit and Truth. The Spirit does not work "outside" of the Truth.

I don't necessarily mind the rest of his quote, as long as we are clear that God requires certain elements to accompany (not in the musical sense) His worship.

Now, musical instruments are either a matter of the true worship of God, or, they are not. Does anyone have a Biblical argument for musical instruments and not simply a practical one?

Since there is ample biblical evidence of musical instruments used in the Old Covenant, and there is a continuity in the covenants, does anyone have a Biblical argument against musical instruments?

Greetings:

Surprising that a Baptist is arguing "continunity in the covenants"?

I think that the forbidding of musical instruments in worship is a fine example of how paedo-baptism teaches that there is a non-continunity between the Covenants.

In my first post on this thread I hinted at the argument. In the Old Testament musical instruments in the public worship of God were a matter of the Tabernacle/Temple worship:

Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. 3And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee. 5When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward. 6When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys. 7But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm. 8And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations. Numbers 10:2-9

This is the first mention of instruments in the worship of God. Though Miriam used a cymbol - that was a matter of celebration, and not a formal worship service. Notice several things:

1) The fashioning of them was commanded "of silver; of a whole piece" the people were not to use the instruments they brought out of Egypt.

2) What they will be used for: "the calling of the assembly and the journeying of the camps."

3) Where they are to be used, "at the door of the tabernacle."

4) The manner in which they are to be used is shown in verse 3-9.

5) Who are to use these two trumpets, "the sons of Aaron, the priests."

Putting all other agendas aside: One has to admit that the use of instruments in worship is a matter of divine command, and not a matter of a practical nature. No other instruments were used during the wanderings until the time of David and the settling of the Tabernacle in the Temple. The Rev. John Price notes:

The Levites were no longer needed to transport the Tabernacle and all its furnishings. The time had come for their role in God's worship to be changed. David begins to use them as professional singers and musicians (1 Chron. 16:1-6, 23:1-5). David acknowledges, "The LORD God of Israel has given rest to His people, and He dwells in Jerusalem forever. And also, the Levites will no longer need to carry the tabernacle and all its utensils for its service" (1 Chron. 23:25-26), From: Price, John, Old Light on New Worship: Musical Instruments and the Worship of God, A Theological, Historical and Psychological Study, (Simpson Publishing Company, Avinger, TX, 2005) - probably the best book I have ever read on the subject.

David was a skilled musician, 1 Sam. 18:10. Yet, he did not include himself among the Temple musicians. It was only the Levites who were commanded to perform in the Temple. Hezekiah picks up on this:

And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets, 2 Chron. 29:25,26.

It was the Levites in the Temple who were commanded to play instruments. The children of Israel would do nothing in the worship of God that was not commanded. Apparently, they learned their lesson from Nadab and Abihu.

One cannot argue instruments in worship today based upon the Old Testament understanding of it. The Levitical priesthood has been abolished by the priesthood (Melchisedec) of Jesus Christ:

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 7:11-18

The Temple worship services have also been abolished:

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:8-14

The instruments commanded in the Jewish Temple during the infancy of the church (as a paedo-baptist I can use the term "church" to refer to the OT saints), have been done away with by the destruction of the same Temple. We now live in a more mature age with a greater manifestation of the Spirit of God. The Temple worship with all of its "carnal ordinances" have been done away, and the Church in its adulthood has now emerged from the worship of the synagogue. This is the universal testimony of the godly throughout all ages:

Justin Martyr ... "The use of singing with instrumental music was not received in the Christian churches as it was among the Jews in their infant state, but only the use of plain song ... Musical organs pertain to the Jewish ceremonies and agree no more to us than circumcision."

Clement of Alexandria ... "Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and are intent on their idol-worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wineless feasts ... 'Praise Him with harp,' for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; 'and with the lute, praise Him,' understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit ... But for us to make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace, by whom we pay homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute.

What trumpet of God is now heard--unless it is in the entertainments of the heretics? (Tertullian, c. 210)

Why should I speak of strings set vibrating to noise? Even if these things were not dedicated to idols, they should not be approached and gazed upon by faithful Christians. (Novatian, c. 235)

The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms. (Eusebius, Commentary on Psalm 91:2-3, c.320)

Chrysostom ... "It was only permitted to the Jews, as sacrifice was, for the heaviness and grossness of their souls. God condescended to their weakness, because they were lately drawn off from idols: but now instead of organs, we may use our own bodies to praise him withal."

Augustine ... "Praise the Lord with harp; sing unto Him with the psaltery of ten strings,' For this even now we sang, this expressing with one mouth, we instructed your hearts. Hath not the institution of these Vigils in the name of Christ brought it to pass that harps should be banished out of this place? ... Let none turn his heart to instruments of the theatre."

The Council of Laodicea (367) forbids the use of musical instruments in worship, and this has remained the policy of the Eastern Orthodox Church to the present day. In 416 the Council of Carthage addressed this issue and declared, "On the Lord's day let all instruments of music be silenced."

Thomas Aquinas wrote, "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize."

John Calvin, in his "Commentary on Exodus," 15:20, writes, "Instrumental music is reckoned among the number of legal ceremonies which Christ hath abolished, where as now we must retain a gospel simplicity."

The Synod of Holland and Zealand, convened in 1554, gave the following instruction:

"That ministers should endeavour to prevail with the magistrates to banish organs and instrumental music out of the churches." Twenty-seven years later, in 1581, the National Assembly convened in Middleburg, again called for the removal of organs from the churches. Therefore, those who champion the use of instrumental music in Christian worship are in direct opposition to the Apostolic Simplicity of Worship as held by the fathers of the Dutch Reformation."

Even the Catholics admit this: "For almost a thousand years Gregorian chant, without any instrumental or harmonic addition, was the only music connection with the liturgy. The organ, in its primitive and rude form, was the first, and for a long time the sole, instrument used to accompany the chant. It gave the pitch to the singers and added brilliancy and sonority. (Instruments which replaced the songs were strongly condemned). Catholic Encyclopaedia online.

John Calvin, “Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists, therefore, have foolishly borrowed this, as well as many other things from the Jew. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise: but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to Him.” (Commentary on Psalms 33)

John Wesley, “I have no opposition to the organ in our chapel provided it is neither seen nor heard.” (Adam Clark’s Commentary, Volume 4, page 868)

Adam Clark, “I am an old man, and an old minister; and I here declare that I never knew them to be productive of any good in the worship of God; and have had reason to believe that they were productive of much evil. Music, as a science, I esteem and admire; but instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and abhor.” (Adam Clark’s Commentary, Volume 4, page 686)

Charles Spurgeon, when asked why, in the twenty years he preached in London, never used the organ in worship, cited 1 Cor. 14:15 and said “I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also, I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery.”

Finally,

James W. McKinnon examined 150 references to Christian music up to the Middle Ages and found opposition to instruments ‘uniform, vehement, and monolithic’.

The Biblical argument of all of these men is simple: Instruments in worship was a matter of the Jewish/Infancy of the Church. They have been abolished as the Temple has been abolished. We now worship God in our hearts and by the Spirit.

Blessings,

-CH

J. Baldwin:

I would like to see your reference. Because Strong's disagrees with your assessment of psalmos. The Psalms were sung without musical instruments in the synagogue worship services. According to Strong: psallo means to "play a musical instrument." The psalms could be accompanied "with a voice, harp. or other instrument" but this is referring back to the Temple worship, and not to the synagogue.

Yes, that is what Strong's says in his dictionary of Bible words. Vines says, "Psalmos" primarly denoted a striking or twitching with fingers (on musical strings); then, a sacred song, sung to musical accompaniment, a psalm." From this definition, we get both possibilities.

Just the fact that the word psalm is so tightly connected to playing an instrument is enough to make me, a simple person, think that the Holy Spirit wanted us to use instruments in worship. Why else would He have led the apostle to use two words "psallos" and "psalmos" both having to do with musical instruments in the same verse?
I contend that the Spirit of God in His wisdom knowing the future and the possibility for confusion would have made sure we knew what He was talking about. Therefore, He would not have chosen confusing words like "psallos" if musical instruments were not allowed in worship.

By the way, Strongs doesn't say anything about temple worship. Again, the verses in question where not written to Jews, but Gentiles. They didn't necessarily have a clue about temple worship.

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

Hi Rob,

This is your particular hobby horse, not mine, clearly the poll was designed to provoke yet another discussion of a position that you have made your up about long ago and I'm not getting the impression that you are hearing me. You presume that anyone who has a musical instrument in a worship service believes that instrumental music is an element of worship I have stated repeatedly that I do not believe it is an element. I approve of the use of an instrument as a circumstance to assist in congregational singing, just as a pitch pipe is also a musical instrument used as a circumstance to assist in congregational singing. I don't personally believe that the Apostles had "harp solos" in the Apostolic church, however I don't think they would have gone ballistic over the news that someone in a gentile church used a harp to accompany the singing of their congregation. Clearly, merely using an instrument to accompany singing was not inherently sinful in the Old Testament, or I might add, the New:

"Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (Rev. 5:8-10)

Rob, can you explain to me why this issue is so important to you that you bring it up as a subject for argument again and again?

Why Andy? I believe this is the first time I have ever mentioned Musical instruments in worship in your presence? Wasn't our conversation on the Warfield site about Exclusive Psalmody? And did you not delete my answer to your post on the grounds that you think it not worth arguing about? On your blog you mentioned the same thing, and I honored you by not replying and continuing the argument.

I have over 300+ posts on this site, and you will find that EP and Instruments fill up less than 2% of my writings. Why such nasty accusations from a minister of the gospel? Saying things like "hobby horse" is considered loving and kind and gentle? From a man who does not know me - except through a few posts - you are quick to judge.

Can you Biblically defend your view that instruments are a "circumstance" in worship? Your example of a microphone is not Scriptural in nature. I have shown in posts above that God does not consider instruments "circumstantial" but a very part of the Temple worship. You claim the RPW yet even the circumstances in worship are subject to Christian prudence as outlined in the Bible - we should not build a church near a nudist colony, for example.

Grace and Peace to you brother,

-CH