Last edited by nleshelman; 08-11-2008 at 03:37 PM. Reason: emoticon wrong
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary
Backwoods Presbyterian (08-11-2008), Blueridge Believer (08-11-2008), VirginiaHuguenot (08-11-2008)
Panta?![]()
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Ruling Elder Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA
"I am as happy as perhaps creation can make me. I enjoy all the necessaries and most of the conveniences of life. I have a peaceful study as a refuge from the hurries and noise of the world around me, the venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me..." --Samuel Davies
Deo Vindice
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus
" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul
BlackCalvinist (08-15-2008)
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus
" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul
In Christ's love and service
Mr. Tim Cunningham,
BMus. (Trombone Performance), University of Toronto
Dip. CS, Regent College, Vancouver
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC
------------
"I once sat in darkness, and waited for the moon to rise.
I once sat in darkness, and waited for the sun to shine.
I once sat in darkness, when all the light I'd waited for was gone.
Then Jesus came, and now the only true light, ever, shines in me."
– John Deacon -
BlackCalvinist (08-15-2008), Tim (08-12-2008)
Historical questions.
When did organs first appear in Presbyterian Churches in the North America?
When did organs first appear in old school / old light Presbyterian Churches in North America?
When did organs first appear in Dutch Reformed Churches in the North America?
When did organs first appear in German Reformed Churches in North America?
When did organs first appear in Congregationional hurches in New England?
When did organs first appear in Baptist [other then free will and missionary] Churches in the US?
When did organs first appear in Episcopal Churches in the US?
I suspect that the acceptance of organs is a post second great awakening phenomena. I wonder what the historical facts are.
Thomas Yeutter,
Mason, MI
Member St. Patrick's Anglican Church, Comstock, MI
Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had set his heart to study the law of the Lord and to do it and to teach its statues in Isreal.
When that proof comes, we'll have to see what happensBecause 95% of the church either does not know the case for unaccompanied psalms only or has not been presented with a case that is provably biblical.![]()
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California
Seb (08-11-2008)
I know that Cotton Mather saw the organ coming into New England as a way for the Anglicans (no offense to you sir) to steal away the Puritan youth, much like the rock band in the church has stolen away many of today's youth from 'traditional' worshiping churches!
Here is the quote:
"Attempts to propagate the Church of England among us, by a most conspicuous and marvelous blast of heaven upon them, do very much come to nothing. Even the organs introduced into the chapel in this metropolis of the English America, signify very little to draw over our people unto them." -Cotton Mather, in a letter to John Stirling, 1714.
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary
Backwoods Presbyterian (08-11-2008), Bygracealone (08-12-2008), KMK (08-12-2008), VirginiaHuguenot (08-11-2008)
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus
" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul
I would say it's a lot more than 95%.
Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics
TimV (08-11-2008)
Thomas Yeutter,
Mason, MI
Member St. Patrick's Anglican Church, Comstock, MI
Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had set his heart to study the law of the Lord and to do it and to teach its statues in Isreal.
How often in Israel's history did they have worship right? How often were we told that a King did what was right in the sight of the Lord, but the high places were not removed? How often were they removed? Not very many.
It seems we are not doing much better than OT Israel.![]()
Traci
Lynnwood OPC
"I have taken all my good deeds, and all my bad deeds, and cast them through each other in a heap before the Lord, and fled from both, and betaken myself to the Lord Jesus Christ, and in him I have sweet peace."--David Dickson
Bygracealone (08-12-2008), Jeff_Bartel (08-12-2008), nleshelman (08-11-2008), VirginiaHuguenot (08-11-2008)
I will respond to this question as I would a new member to the PB!
or
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Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary
African churches use drums...a lot![]()
-JD
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus
" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul
Bottom line is Davidius came through again with his unusual insightfulness. The 95% figure is way too low; I should have thought of that myself. I don't believe I've ever seen or heard of any African church that didn't use instruments, after 9 years there, and there sure aren't many US churches that don't.
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California
David Hume's naturalistic fallacy. Because something is the case, absolutely does not mean it ough to be the case. This is like me asking: "If we aren't supposed to murder babies, why do so many people have abortions?" The "is" and the "ought" are completely severed metaphysically. They have no hold on each other except that the "is" sometimes pursues the "ought."
"God has decreed the eternal, untouchable election of countless Arminians."
David G. Suggs Jr.
New Covenant, PCA
Anderson, South Carolina (Currently residing in Clemson, SC)
Tim (08-12-2008)
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary
Mark Maney
Dovercourt Baptist Church (Associate Pastor)
Master of Theological Studies
Master of Arts (Cross Cultural)
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
The organ probably came first since the piano wasn't invented until the 1700s. There have been portable organs in existence since the middle ages.
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27
Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/
I'm not arguing either way, I just get bugged by fallacious reasoningQuote:
Originally Posted by davidsuggs![]()
David Hume's naturalistic fallacy. Because something is the case, absolutely does not mean it ough to be the case. This is like me asking: "If we aren't supposed to murder babies, why do so many people have abortions?" The "is" and the "ought" are completely severed metaphysically. They have no hold on each other except that the "is" sometimes pursues the "ought."
Sounds like you are arguing for the PCA to get back to roots of acapella worship?
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"God has decreed the eternal, untouchable election of countless Arminians."
David G. Suggs Jr.
New Covenant, PCA
Anderson, South Carolina (Currently residing in Clemson, SC)
I read on one website that "a magnificent organ was added in 1834" in the Baptist church in Providence, RI, being the church that Roger Williams started in the 1600's. That's all I've found so far.
Thread title: If We Should Not Use Instruments: Then Why Does 95% of the Church Use Them?
If this is the justification for having musical instruments, then can we also conclude that Athanasius was wrong? Or to put another way, since when does consensus determine practice within Christian churches?
So, no, it is a bad question. Fallacious questions always are.
Chris Thomas | SBC-Founders | Fairbanks, AK
"Whatever the cause, the Calvinists were the only fighting Protestants. It was they whose faith gave them courage to stand up for the Reformation. In England, Scotland, France, Holland, they,... did the work, and but for them the Reformation would have been crushed... If it had not been for Calvinists,... and whatever you like to call them, the Pope and Philip would have won, and we should either be Papists or Socialists." ~ Sir John Skelton
Actually, there was no fallacious reasoning in the OP.
To be fallacious, there must be an improper movement from premise to conclusion. There was no conclusion in the OP, only a question.
It's interesting to see how several people have jumped to their own conclusion, assuming that the OP is using an appeal to majority to assert that instruments are good.
In fact, if you clicked the link and read it, you would know the author is actually pointing people in the opposite direction.
Charlie Johnson
Downtown Presbyterian Church (PCA)
M.A. Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog: Sacra Pagina
queenknitter (08-16-2008)
The answer is: because 95% (or more) of the church is right.
Richard T. Zuelch, M.Div
Ruling Elder, OPC (not currently serving)
Westminster Presbyterian Church, CA (OPC)
www.alexandermaclaren.wordpress.com
www.reiterations.wordpress.com
www.spurgeonswords.wordpress.com
www.traherne.wordpress.com
The gospel would be better understood if the fact of universal sinfulness were more deeply felt. - Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910), commenting on Romans 3:19-26.
AThornquist (12-03-2008), BlackCalvinist (08-15-2008)
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary
http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/
"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus
" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul
Josh
CCRPC, RPCGA
Board Rules -Signature Rules
How absurd a tenet is this, which holdeth that there is some particular worship of God allowed, and not commanded? What new light is this which maketh all our divines to have been in the mist, who have acknowledged no worship of God, but that which God hath commanded? Who ever heard of commanded and allowed worship? - George Gillespie
Majority doesn't mean correct but it does say something else. If 95% of the church uses instruments then there must be a legitimate argument out there for using them. Even though Arius was wrong, he was making an argument that at face value made a lot of sense (it would have had too, 95% of the church was convinced!). But alas, Arius did not have the BEST argument, because it didn't best account ALL the biblical data, unlike Athanasius' trinitarian argument which eventually won the day.
So the question that has to be asked is why RPW and EP is not really all that convincing to a majority of Christians, even reformed typed Christians.
Either RPW's argument is weak (Arius), or those who are making it aren't being heard (Athanasius). What do you guys think is the crux of the problem? Or is it just a rebel heart that prevents people from embracing RPW? But why would so many Christians have such a rebellious heart on such an important issue unless you want to say that only those who practice RPW are true Christians. But then you would be adding to the Gospel. So that brings it back to the start of this paragraph: Either RPW's argument is weak (Arius), or those who are making it aren't being heard (Athanasius). Which is it?
Mark Maney
Dovercourt Baptist Church (Associate Pastor)
Master of Theological Studies
Master of Arts (Cross Cultural)
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Roldan (08-12-2008)
"The Fallacy of Many Questions: On the Notions of Complexity, Loadedness and Unfair Entrapment in Interrogative Theory"
I was responding to the question not the linked site.
Chris Thomas | SBC-Founders | Fairbanks, AK
"Whatever the cause, the Calvinists were the only fighting Protestants. It was they whose faith gave them courage to stand up for the Reformation. In England, Scotland, France, Holland, they,... did the work, and but for them the Reformation would have been crushed... If it had not been for Calvinists,... and whatever you like to call them, the Pope and Philip would have won, and we should either be Papists or Socialists." ~ Sir John Skelton
This is an interesting comment. I am just going to take a step back from the specific subject of the OP and make an observation.
I am becoming increasingly convinced that people adopt a certain theological position by default. That is, they have never even heard that there is a debate on that particular issue.
So, if you go to a certain church and ask, why do you not use instruments (***EDIT: should read "why do you use instruments"***), you will not get this:
"Well, I have given this matter a great deal of thought. I have studied the continuity and discontinuity between the OT and the NT, I have studied the function of the Levitical priesthood and the regulative principle of worship, the early practices of the church, the Westminster Divines, Calvin, Girardeau, etc. And have come to the conclusion ________"
No, instead you will likely get a blank stare. They will also likely never have been taught the regulative principle of worship and how it is demonstrated from scripture.
I have recently sought to introduce a church elder and church piano player to the RPW. They were just never taught this, so I am trying to do it kindly and charitably, just as those who showed me this did for me when I first learned about reformed theology.
Last edited by Tim; 08-13-2008 at 08:06 AM.
Tim Lindsay
member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, Halifax, NS, Canada
Living in Cape Town, South Africa
"at the foot of Table Mountain, underneath the Southern Cross, not far from the Cape of Good Hope"
Iconoclast (08-15-2008), R Harris (08-15-2008)
Mark Maney
Dovercourt Baptist Church (Associate Pastor)
Master of Theological Studies
Master of Arts (Cross Cultural)
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
The presumed scholar of the moment on the subject of Westminster and exclusive psalmody/musical instruments in worship is Nick Needham. He concedes the historical point that not just the Westminster Assembly, but Puritanism in general were opposed to instrumental music in worship. As far as his views on EP and some faults in his handling of musical instruments, see the forthcoming review by Matthew Winzer in The Confessional Presbyterian volume 4 (2008). I believe Matthew's work will challenge the presumption, and very much smashes Needham's conclusion that the Assembly allows for anything but psalms in the documents they produced.
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
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• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
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The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
Augusta (08-12-2008), Bygracealone (08-12-2008)
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Ruling Elder Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA
"I am as happy as perhaps creation can make me. I enjoy all the necessaries and most of the conveniences of life. I have a peaceful study as a refuge from the hurries and noise of the world around me, the venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me..." --Samuel Davies
Deo Vindice
nleshelman (08-12-2008)
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