Help With Exclusive Psalmody.

Blueridge Believer · #1 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 09:10 AM

I am asking for those of you here that are ep to give me some links to matieral to read that I might research you postion more perfectly. Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated.

brother James

ModernPuritan? · #2 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 09:34 AM

Exclusive Psalmody Homepage

Foundation For Reformation: The Regulative Principle Of Worship

Here fpcr:

Introduction

those should keep you busy for a while.

Daniel Ritchie · #3 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:14 AM

I suggest reading The Regulative Principle of Worship: Explained and Applied by Daniel F.N. Ritchie...espcially the chapter on exclusive psalmody.

VirginiaHuguenot · #4 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:22 AM

James -- This thread may be of interest. May the Lord bless your studies, brother.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/pro-...-please-16188/

Blueridge Believer · #5 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:29 AM

I thank you brethren for helping to disspell the ignorance of your poor brother in Christ.

Coram Deo · #6 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:32 AM

Songs of Zion by Michael Bushell

One of the greatest modern work on EP..

.

Daniel Ritchie · #7 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

Songs of Zion by Michael Bushell

One of the greatest modern work on EP..

.

This book convinced me of exclusive psalmody more than any other when I read it over 6 years ago.

Blueridge Believer · #8 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

Songs of Zion by Michael Bushell

One of the greatest modern work on EP..

.

Where can I purchase this book.

Coram Deo · #9 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:47 AM

I heard the author is reformatting the book and is due for republications but I am not sure when the date is for completion..

Andrew might know of better and cheaper places then I... I just saw two copies over at Amazon for $85 dollars.. That is insane...

I brought my copy about a year ago and it took me 3 to 4 months to find available copy which cost me about $20 dollars....

So keep your eyes pealed.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

Songs of Zion by Michael Bushell

One of the greatest modern work on EP..

.

Where can I purchase this book.

***Joshua*** · #10 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:47 AM

Brian Schwertley's material on the topic is decent (if you can set aside his attitude a bit):

A Brief Examination of Exclusive Psalmody
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/102503...2503211652.mp3
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/4220716407/4220716407.mp3
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/4290716444/4290716444.mp3

Our very own Rev. Winzer has written a great response to Iain Murray's tract against EP, it can be found here on the PB: http://www.puritanboard.com/f87/sing...ge-land-24063/

VirginiaHuguenot · #11 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

Songs of Zion by Michael Bushell

One of the greatest modern work on EP..

.

Where can I purchase this book.

James -- I have an extra copy. It needs a good home. I'll give you a good deal if you are interested. Just send me a pm.

Coram Deo · #12 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:51 AM

I knew Andrew would come through in one way or the other.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

James -- I have an extra copy. It needs a good home. I'll give you a good deal if you are interested. Just send me a pm.

***Joshua*** · #13 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:51 AM

How many extra copies, Andrew?

Coram Deo · #14 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:53 AM

He is most likely the reason why they need to republish.. He bought up all the copies of the last printing.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshua

How many extra copies, Andrew?

VirginiaHuguenot · #15 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshua

How many extra copies, Andrew?

I may have one more coming to me later this week. I have a friend with extras that he wants me to find a home for at prices of my discretion because his interest is in letting folks read the book affordably. One already went to a good home, one may go to James, and one more should be in my hands soon. Just let me know brother.

***NaphtaliPress*** · #16 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:56 AM

Anyone know if in addition to reformatting the author is adding any material?

Daniel Ritchie · #17 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 12:57 PM

Brother James

A while back, I wrote a response to an article by another brother on exclusive psalmody, although the person in question was not convinced, he thanked me for the series (his response has been lost as it was posted on my original blog). I hope these posts are of some help to you:

Exclusive Psalmody Defended: A Response to Nathan Pitchford (Part 1) « Reformed Covenanter

Exclusive Psalmody Defended: A Response to Nathan Pitchford (Part 2) « Reformed Covenanter

Exclusive Psalmody Defended: A Response to Nathan Pitchford (3) « Reformed Covenanter

Exclusive Psalmody Defended: A Response to Nathan Pitchford (Part 4) « Reformed Covenanter

Exclusive Psalmody Defended: A Response to Nathan Pitchford (Part 5) « Reformed Covenanter

Exclusive Psalmody Defended: A Response to Nathan Pitchford (Part 6) « Reformed Covenanter

Pilgrim · #18 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshua

How many extra copies, Andrew?

I may have one more coming to me later this week. I have a friend with extras that he wants me to find a home for at prices of my discretion because his interest is in letting folks read the book affordably. One already went to a good home, one may go to James, and one more should be in my hands soon. Just let me know brother.

I would be interested as well if there are any more copies on the way.

VirginiaHuguenot · #19 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshua

How many extra copies, Andrew?

I may have one more coming to me later this week. I have a friend with extras that he wants me to find a home for at prices of my discretion because his interest is in letting folks read the book affordably. One already went to a good home, one may go to James, and one more should be in my hands soon. Just let me know brother.

I would be interested as well if there are any more copies on the way.

James -- Let me know if you are interested. If not, I'll follow-up with Chris. Thanks.

Rev. Todd Ruddell · #20 (**permalink**) 04-21-2008, 10:55 PM

There are two very good works I would recommend--forgive me if they have been mentioned already.

The True Psalmody, published by our very own Chris Coldwell in Naphtali Press, Anthology # 4, and a book that was reprinted by SWRB a few years back which is a compilation of essays edited by John McNaugher called "The Psalms in Worship".

Both are quite worthwhile.

May the Lord bless your study and enlighten your mind.

Daniel Ritchie · #21 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Todd Ruddell

There are two very good works I would recommend--forgive me if they have been mentioned already.

The True Psalmody, published by our very own Chris Coldwell in Naphtali Press, Anthology # 4, and a book that was reprinted by SWRB a few years back which is a compilation of essays edited by John McNaugher called "The Psalms in Worship".

Both are quite worthwhile.

May the Lord bless your study and enlighten your mind.

John McNaughter's book is especially valuable for the exegesis of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16.

Rev. Todd Ruddell · #22 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Todd Ruddell

There are two very good works I would recommend--forgive me if they have been mentioned already.

The True Psalmody, published by our very own Chris Coldwell in Naphtali Press, Anthology # 4, and a book that was reprinted by SWRB a few years back which is a compilation of essays edited by John McNaugher called "The Psalms in Worship".

Both are quite worthwhile.

May the Lord bless your study and enlighten your mind.

John McNaughter's book is especially valuable for the exegesis of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16.

It is a very small thing, but the man's name is McNaugher--SWRB got it wrong on their re-print.

VirginiaHuguenot · #23 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Todd Ruddell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Todd Ruddell

There are two very good works I would recommend--forgive me if they have been mentioned already.

The True Psalmody, published by our very own Chris Coldwell in Naphtali Press, Anthology # 4, and a book that was reprinted by SWRB a few years back which is a compilation of essays edited by John McNaugher called "The Psalms in Worship".

Both are quite worthwhile.

May the Lord bless your study and enlighten your mind.

John McNaughter's book is especially valuable for the exegesis of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16.

It is a very small thing, but the man's name is McNaugher--SWRB got it wrong on their re-print.

I recommended both works in the aforementioned thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

James -- This thread may be of interest. May the Lord bless your studies, brother.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/pro-...-please-16188/

For information on McNaugher see this thread:

John McNaugher

And for his essay online see here:

Special Exegesis by McNaugher

CDM · #24 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

Songs of Zion by Michael Bushell

One of the greatest modern work on EP..

.

Read this first. Prepare yourself - it takes a strong will to resist its force.

Blueridge Believer · #25 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

I may have one more coming to me later this week. I have a friend with extras that he wants me to find a home for at prices of my discretion because his interest is in letting folks read the book affordably. One already went to a good home, one may go to James, and one more should be in my hands soon. Just let me know brother.

I would be interested as well if there are any more copies on the way.

James -- Let me know if you are interested. If not, I'll follow-up with Chris. Thanks.

I am most interested dear brother!

Blueridge Believer · #26 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 08:30 AM

When did non Psalm singing and mechanical music first start in the church?

AV1611 · #27 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

When did non Psalm singing and mechanical music first start in the church?

The historical question is an interesting one and I do not think it can be settled either way though I am sure most EPers will disagree.

Does anyone know of a good analysis of the 'hymn fragments' in the NT hypothesis.

Daniel Ritchie · #28 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Todd Ruddell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Todd Ruddell

There are two very good works I would recommend--forgive me if they have been mentioned already.

The True Psalmody, published by our very own Chris Coldwell in Naphtali Press, Anthology # 4, and a book that was reprinted by SWRB a few years back which is a compilation of essays edited by John McNaugher called "The Psalms in Worship".

Both are quite worthwhile.

May the Lord bless your study and enlighten your mind.

John McNaughter's book is especially valuable for the exegesis of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16.

It is a very small thing, but the man's name is McNaugher--SWRB got it wrong on their re-print.

What a strange name.

VirginiaHuguenot · #29 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

When did non Psalm singing and mechanical music first start in the church?

The historical question is an interesting one and I do not think it can be settled either way though I am sure most EPers will disagree.

Does anyone know of a good analysis of the 'hymn fragments' in the NT hypothesis.

Bushell deals with this. Here is another resource to consider from a chapter entitled "The Psalms in the New Testament Church" by Prof. W.G. Moorehead in The Psalms in Worship ed. by John McNaughter, pp. 113-118:

Quote:

IV. Are there traces of hymns in the Epistles? It is affirmed with much positiveness that there are fragments of hymns found in the Epistles, and that these must have been in use in the Apostolic Church. Prof. Fisher cites these passages in proof: Eph 5:14; 1 Tim 3:16; 1 Pet 3:10-12. The claim demands careful examination. If it is valid, the position of the Psalm-singers is overthrown. To them at least the matter is vital.

1 Pet 3:10-12 is a quotation, with slight verbal changes, from Ps 34:12-16! Whatever led the learned historian to cite a Psalm in proof of the use of uninspired hymns in the worship of the Apostolic Church passes even conjecture. Is it a case when "Homer nods"? What would be thought of the judgment of a Psalm-singer who should quote a verse from Toplady's "Rock of Ages" in support of the claim that Psalms are sung in United Presbyterian churches? But the cases are quite parallel.

Eph 5:14 reads: "Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." Who or what is here quoted? The verb "saith" has no subject expressed. King James and both the Revised Versions have "he" as the subject of "saith." In this case it is God that saith, "Awake." If we insert "it" as subject of "saith," then the reference is to Scripture—"Scripture saith." In either case the result is the same; it is an inspired word the Apostle quotes, no merely human utterance. By no possibility of exegetical dexterity can this verse of Ephesians be made to serve as evidence that "fragments of Christian hymns" are found in the New Testament Epistles. Moreover, Dr. Charles Hodge very strongly holds that "as this formula of quotation is never used in the New Testament except when citations are made from the Old Testament, it cannot properly be assumed that the Apostle here quotes some Christian hymn with which the believers in Ephesus were familiar." With Dr. Hodge agree Alford, Ellicott, Eadie, Graham, Moule, Brown, Blaikie, Barnes, and Meyer. Every one of these able students of Scripture affirms that Paul quotes from the Word of God, not at all from a merely human composition. They differ somewhat as to what place he cites, but that this is a Bible quotation they are unanimous. Thus it appears beyond peradventure that two of the texts appealed to by Prof. Fisher and others with him do not denote "Christian hymns"; they pertain to the inspired Scripture.

Turn we now to the third proof text, 1 Tim 3:16—"And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Is this passage a fragment of a Christian hymn? So many besides Prof. Fisher affirm. On what ground does the claim rest? Not on history. The passage has no more history back of it or connected with it than a score of others in the Epistles to Timothy. It has nothing like the history which belongs to 1 Tim 1:15-16, for this has a background in Paul's own life and experience; nor that of 1 Tim 6:13-16, which summarizes two supreme events in our Lord's life. In all the historical records that have been consulted there is not a hint that this text is the fragment of a Christian hymn. Assertions by interpreters there are in plenty; of historical evidence there is none. The chief, if not the only, proof adduced in support of the view that it is the fragment of a "Christian hymn" is its poetical structure. It has the parallelism that distinguishes Hebrew poetry. Accordingly, the American Revision prints it as verse. Is the plea well founded? All intense thought, whether of writing or public speech, falls into rhythm. This is true of the best writing of uninspired men; it is preeminently true of the penmen of Scripture. There is often a measured beat in the sentences that the reader feels, can almost hear. There are many such rhythmical passages in the Epistles. Let the witness of two Greek grammars be heard. The first is Winer's, "the prince of New Testament grammars." Winer furnishes thirteen instances of poetical parallelism, 1 Tim 3:16 being one of the thirteen. Green's Handbook, the second, gives seven more. Thus in all we have twenty such rhythmical texts in the Epistles. If we include the whole body of New Testament Scripture, the number will exceed thirty. These all have the poetical structure of 1 Tim 3:16. Are they all "fragments of Christian hymns"?

To establish beyond peradventure the truthfulness of the statements just made, three examples are given. Here is a specimen of what one (Humphreys) supposes is a "rhythmical doxology," 1 Tim 6:15-16:—

"Who is the blessed and only Potentate,

The King of kings,

And Lord of lords;

Who only hath immortality,

Dwelling in light unapproachable;

Whom no man hath seen, nor can see;

To Whom be honor and power eternal. Amen."

The second is furnished by Green's Handbook—Phil 3:10:—

"To know Him,

and the power of His resurrection,

and the fellowship of His sufferings,

being made conformable to His death."

The third, found also in Green's Handbook, is John 10:14-15:—

"I am the good Shepherd;

and I know My own,

and Mine own know Me,

even as the Father knoweth Me,

and I know the Father;

and I lay down My life for the sheep."

It thus appears that 1 Tim 3:16 does not by any means stand alone as to poetical structure; it is only one of many passages of the like form. Therefore no weight can attach to its parallelism as proof of its being a "Christian hymn." The argument breaks down totally because it proves too much. If such exegesis should prevail, then no limit scarcely can be fixed to the hymnal fragments of the New Testament; the Book abounds with them.

One other passage must be briefly noted—2 Tim 2:11-13: "Faithful is the saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we shall deny Him, He also will deny us; if we are faithless, He abideth faithful, for He cannot deny Himself" (RV). This great sentence has rhythmical arrangement; its parts balance each other as in genuine parallelism; it is as poetical in its structure as 1 Tim 3:16. But yet it is not the "fragment of a hymn," nor a brief "creed," nor yet a "liturgical fragment," although it has been called all these. The words, "faithful is the saying," seem to denote a quotation, but in the other places where they occur they cannot be thus understood (1 Tim 1:15; 1 Tim 3:1; 1 Tim 4:9). All these "sayings" of Paul in the Pastoral Epistles belong to a time of extreme danger and persecution. These Letters were written in martyr times. Nero's persecution of Christians began in AD 64; it lasted till 68—four years of indescribable torture and suffering for the people of God. First and Second Timothy and Titus were written almost certainly after Nero's atrocities had begun. The peril was that Christians would quail before the dreadful trial, that they would deny Christ. Hence Paul writes to these young ministers of the Gospel to be steadfast, faithful, true even in death. Read in the light of martyr fires, his "sayings" glow with intensity of feeling, with the pathos and the entreaty of one who himself faces death as a witness for Christ. His words ring like a battle shout, like the sharp, abrupt orders of the commander on the field—"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life"; [1 Tim 6:12] "watch thou in all things, endure afflictions"; [2 Tim 4:5] "hold fast the form of sound words"; [2 Tim 1:13] "great is the mystery of godliness"; [1 Tim 3:16] "if we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us." [2 Tim 2:12] Every one of these texts, and many more like them, have something of cadence; they ring like sharp steel, and there is a rhythm in their ring. Accordingly, they are not fragments of hymns, nor short creeds, nor quotations of any sort. They are the impassioned words of Christ's servant who appeals to his fellow-saints by the Spirit of God to hold fast, to fight bravely, and to hope to the end.

There are fourteen songs in the Book of Revelation, viz., Rev 4:8,11; Rev 5:9-10,12-13; Rev 7:10,12; Rev 11:8,17-18; Rev 12:10-12; Rev 15:3-4; Rev 19:1,2,5-8. The American Revision of the Bible marks these songs typographically as distinct and different from the rest of the Book. Sometimes these songs are cited as a justification of the use of other songs than the Psalms in God's worship. Let the following points be noted as a reply to the assertion above referred to:

1. These songs are all inspired by the Spirit of God. More than any other Book of the New Testament Canon, the Revelation insists on its being from God, that in it God unveils His purpose touching the future of this world, of His people, of their enemies, and of His Kingdom. Therefore these inspired songs can afford no ground whatever for the use of uninspired compositions in the worship of God.

2. They are sung almost exclusively by angels and glorified saints. The only apparent exception is Rev 5:13—the song of creation. But even this does not contradict our statement. The voices of angels and saints are joined by the voice of creation, animate and inanimate, now made vocal in its praise to the Lamb. The tuneful utterances of the glorified and of angels before the Throne hardly belong to sinful mortals on earth.

3. They are sung in heaven. Hence, they do not pertain to this world.

4. There is not a shadow of a hint that these and the like songs in the New Testament are divinely authorized to be employed in the worship of Christ's Church.

5. They are an essential part in the structure of the Apocalypse; they move within the circle of those mighty events which mark the winding up of the world's affairs, which characterize the final struggle between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Hence, in the judgment of some of the most earnest students of the Book, they do not pertain to this dispensation.

VirginiaHuguenot · #30 (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

I am asking for those of you here that are ep to give me some links to matieral to read that I might research you postion more perfectly. Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated.

brother James