Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 41 to 59 of 59

A capella Exclusive Psalmody discuss EP: Who's Changed? in the Worship forums; Originally Posted by ChristopherPaul I have not read all the past threads, in fact every thread I came across during my days here, Fred responded ...

  1. #41
    Me Died Blue's Avatar
    Me Died Blue is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    4,621
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristopherPaul View Post
    I have not read all the past threads, in fact every thread I came across during my days here, Fred responded with a sigh, qualifying how he already addressed this and will no longer entertain anymore threads. So I am not sure I ever read the infamous Fred Greco argument for IP over EP. Which thread contains these original discussions?
    Two of the main lines of thought had to do with the continuity and progression of worship throughout redemptive history, and also the issue of how Paul's readers would have interpreted his words in Ephesians and Colossians (as well as Paul's intention). One thread on the former issue is here. One thread on the latter issue is here. Some that address both issues are here and here

    Also, some other threads with not nearly as much material are here and here and here.
    Chris


    A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

    My Facebook Here

    Chris Blum
    Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Petersburg, KY

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

  2. #42
    ChristopherPaul's Avatar
    ChristopherPaul is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,529
    Quote Originally Posted by Me Died Blue View Post
    Two of the main lines of thought had to do with the continuity and progression of worship throughout redemptive history, and also the issue of how Paul's readers would have interpreted his words in Ephesians and Colossians (as well as Paul's intention). One thread on the former issue is here. One thread on the latter issue is here. Some that address both issues are here and here

    Also, some other threads with not nearly as much material are here and here and here.



    Well, thank you very much

    <picks up phone, "uh yes, please cancel my 4:00, 5:00 and, well, all my appointments for tomorrow, thanks.">
    Christopher Reeder
    Husband to Kara, Father to Abigail (11), Caleb (10), Grace (9), Zoë (7), Elijah (6), Hannah (4), Mary (2), Philip (1), and Boy (in womb)

    Member: Greenville Presbyterian Church, Free Church of Scotland (Continuing), Greenville, SC

  3. #43
    JohnV's Avatar
    JohnV is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    4,419
    Quote Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
    Has it been proved that beyond a doubt psalms, hymn, and spiritual songs, doesn't refer to the psalter? If not, then we are left with practical EP still? Are we not? The RPW is about certainly, not uncertainly. We all agree we can sing psalms. Why isn't that enough if there is uncertainty?
    As an honest answer to an honest question, not as debate, I would respond that this is not enough for me. We're not talking about whether to paint the barn red of green. In this case you can't say, "Well, its not green, so it has to be red." We can still paint the barn other colours. But in this case we're talking about what God requires of us, and there is so much more to it than merely singing the Psalms. He isn't just saying "Sing my songs", but also, "When you sing your songs out of your heart, sing them with grace in your heart." But more than that, we're talking about what God requires of us, not what is left to us after we've considered this or that.

    And yet on the other hand, again to give an honest answer to an honest question, not as debate, this kind of answer says far too much. The conclusion reaches beyond the reasons. Its conclusion appeals to the RPW for regulation, where the elders' discretion plays a role, not to Confessional restrictions where discretion does not play a role. There is a difference to utilizing the RPW within its own restrictions compared to appealing to the RPW as if to the Word for instruction. This makes EP more difficult to accept, not less difficult.

    This is where these discussions have helped me out a great deal. Through the proper concerns and rightful arguments that have been raised in favour of EP I've come to appreciate more the many facets of expression of praise in both the care of the words and its relationship to the notes, harmonies, and even the instruments used. Some songs must be sung to the harp, for example, because only the harp renders the solemn, plaintive notes required for a certain song, so that the right thing is expressed; and some songs are to be sung by the young women, so that it renders the right voice to the words. Without these additional instructions, the songs lose so much.


    I have been asked to help out with a man who needs some friendship. He is musically inclined, and that is where we began to be friends. But I've also used music to try to get some things through to him, and to help him get some things engrained in his thinking. One of the songs I used was "Lonesome Valley", which speaks a lot to his problems and needs. But it is a song with an endless range of verses, which were originally part of the song's intent. There are very few set stanzas, because they changed in the original according to the need and place. And it usually had three different meanings at once. I used that to help him find a way out of his problems and into joy and the expression of it to the One who faithfully leads him. His challenge is to control his thoughts, which, because of his handicap, is a difficulty he cannot escape. But he can work with it. I am trying to help him in the little way that I can.

    Anyways, to get back to "Lonesome Valley". I played for him three different versions of it. (Actually four; the first one was only a few lines long to bring it back to remembrance for him: he did remember it.) I played each of the three basic meanings for him: the one in the field of drudgery, of heavy work without rest or remuneration; the one of expressing solace, hope, comfort, and companionship to someone within voice range, but too far away to reach physically; and the one of saying something that you don't want others to understand. But I didn't tell him that. I told him that I was playing the personal contemplative version, the more hopeful turn-your-feelings-into-something-positive version, and the joyful exhuberance-which-results version. With each the words slowly changed from something some of you might think was Arminian to something that was definitely Reformed, doctrinally speaking. Yet all of it was an expression of the heart out of feeling the need for God. And it followed the song naturally. And, of all things, I got it from a history book, from Andy Griffith, June Carter Cash, and others, as well as from the preaching of the Word in the Reformed Church.

    There is so much more to music, to praise and worship in song. Everything that I sang to my friend was in the Psalms, and yet I did not sing one particular Psalm. If I sing Ps. 1:1, or part of it, and also sing Ps.111: 10, then I have something that's not too far off from Ps. 19, but just not word for word the same. I've fulfilled all the requirements of the EP-ists, that is all except the doctrinal EP, but I sang "Lonesome Valley."

    Its not altogether that different in formal worship, although there are distinct differences to be allowed for. I can sing some things about Christ's teachings, or His sacrifice for our sins, stating these things specifically, and yet not depart from the Psalms at all. We can do it in our time, our culture, with our sense of music, without further instruction than that the Hebrews sang it to the harp, with women voices, but nothing about notes, cadences, harmonies, melodies. If it expresses the heart's longings for God, and is fully within the parameters of the Psalms, then it not only follows the praise of the Psalms but also its commands in relation to song as praise and worship. It fulfills every requirement of the EP-ists, though not that of doctrinal EP, and yet may not be word for word any one Psalm in particular.

    What I've tried to show here is that a lot of the discussion on EP has been helpful. But EP is far from drawing such conclusions as "good enough". That's for painting the barn red or green, but not for worship. The discussions have been helpful to me to expand my understanding of what God requires of us in work and in praise, in life and in worship.

    Again, I'm not trying to debate. I'm just telling you some of the things that have been positive and some of the things that have been lacking in the EP discussions. I haven't nearly covered everything that is on my mind about this subject, but I hope that I've given an honest answer to an honest question.
    JohnV

    John Vandervliet
    Ontario, Canada
    member of: Canadian Reformed Church
    "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

  4. #44
    panta dokimazete is offline. Panting Donkey Machete
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    4,674
    Beautifully and eloquently said, John.

    JD Longmire
    Membership in Process
    1st Pres Ocean Springs, MS

  5. #45
    LadyCalvinist is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,062
    I was definitely thinking about exclusive psalmody, and had attended several churches that practiced EP, but it wasn't until I read Matt's article on the subject that I became firmly convinced of the position.

    One of the things that has long bothered me about praise and worship, and even many hymns, is that I wondered about the theology of many of the songs. There were times when I would be singing and I would literally stop and wonder if what the song was saying was true.

    Whatever we sing to the Lord must be theologically accurate or else how does it honor him? If a guy sings a song about what lovely blue eyes his girlfriend has that is all very well, unless she doesn't HAVE BLUE EYES (men do not try this at home).

    1. The Psalms were written by God, therefore we know they are theologically accurate.
    2. They were meant to be sung.
    3. We know that Calvin and the Westminster Divines believed in EP. There is good reason to believe that EP was the practice of the early church.
    I grant you that there are hymns that are beautiful but the real question is how do we honor God? What does he want us to sing?
    After Rich Mullins died a number of Christian musicians did a tribute album to him. They could have written sungs about what a great guy he was, but that was not what they did. Instead, to honor him, they sang songs that he had written. In other words, what higher praise could they give than to sing his own songs?
    Diane
    Broomall Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA)
    Philadelphia, PA

  6. #46
    Kaalvenist's Avatar
    Kaalvenist is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    641
    Okay... trying to get it back on track...

    As is evidenced by the numerous threads one can view in this forum, there are other places one can argue EP. I'm just interested in finding out if this Board has "done people good" in this regard, leading people to be convinced of exclusive psalmody, or at least a greater emphasis on psalmody as contrasted with hymnody. And if some people, in "bearing their testimony" to EP, happen to also set forth some of the reasons that brought them to such a position, please don't take it as some kind of reason to begin another debate, here on this thread.

    If you wanna debate it, start your own stinkin' thread.
    Sean P.M. McDonald
    Communicant Member of First Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Grand Rapids, MI
    Husband to Laura, father to Olivia, Julia, and Josiah
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain" (Isaiah 45:19).

  7. #47
    Croghanite's Avatar
    Croghanite is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    895
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaalvenist View Post
    If you wanna debate it, start your own stinkin' thread.
    ...waiting for new thread
    Joe
    Christ Bible Church
    Pageland, SC

  8. #48
    Machaira is offline. Inactive User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    163
    Is there a version of the Psalter that is considered standard these days? If yes, where can I find it?
    [B]Jim Polk
    Former/resigned Ruling Elder, Pilgrim Church, PCA
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania[/B]

    [B][I]Jud 1:3 . . .contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.[/I][/B]

    [B][I]God does whatever is right . . . right is whatever God does.[/I][/B]

  9. #49
    justingrid is offline. Inactive User
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    4
    I have not been completely convinced of exclusive psalmody...yet....but I think that I am definitely leaning in that direction. The Scriptures seem far more supportive of exclusive psalmody. Watch this space.....
    Justin Geldart
    Reformed Presbyterian Church of Bucklands Beach
    Auckland, New Zealand

  10. #50
    NaphtaliPress's Avatar
    NaphtaliPress is offline. Administrator
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    18,316
    Blog Entries
    22
    I don't know. There are several popular newer Psalters like the RPCNA work; but the old standard of Psalm singing Presbyterians was the 1650 Scottish Psalter available many different ways. A new version that is not a split leaf Psalter is The Comprehensive Psalter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machaira View Post
    Is there a version of the Psalter that is considered standard these days? If yes, where can I find it?
    Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
    • Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
    • Westminster Letter Press
    The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
    The Blue Banner Archive
    Calvin in the Hands of the Philistines: Did Calvin Bowl on the Sabbath?
    The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).
    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

  11. #51
    Machaira is offline. Inactive User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    163
    Quote Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
    I don't know. There are several popular newer Psalters like the RPCNA work; but the old standard of Psalm singing Presbyterians was the 1650 Scottish Psalter available many different ways. A new version that is not a split leaf Psalter is The Comprehensive Psalter.
    Thank you brother, you have been very helpful.
    [B]Jim Polk
    Former/resigned Ruling Elder, Pilgrim Church, PCA
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania[/B]

    [B][I]Jud 1:3 . . .contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.[/I][/B]

    [B][I]God does whatever is right . . . right is whatever God does.[/I][/B]

  12. #52
    Croghanite's Avatar
    Croghanite is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    895
    Quote Originally Posted by Machaira View Post
    Is there a version of the Psalter that is considered standard these days? If yes, where can I find it?
    Check out The Psalms of David in Metre, 1650 Scotish Psalter. http://www.tbs-sales.org/
    Click on "other publications" to the left of the page and then scroll down the next page.
    I have used this psalter and the Comprehensive Psalter. I prefer the Psalms of David psalter because of the size and I dont like the pages divided the way the CP has done.
    Last edited by Croghanite; 02-02-2007 at 06:41 PM. Reason: my link did not go directly to the Psalter and still wont
    Joe
    Christ Bible Church
    Pageland, SC

  13. #53
    Machaira is offline. Inactive User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    163
    Quote Originally Posted by LAYMAN JOE View Post
    Check out The Psalms of David in Metre, 1650 Scotish Psalter. http://www.tbs-sales.org/
    I have used this psalter and the Comprehensive Psalter. I prefer the Psalms of David psalter because of the size and I dont like the pages divided the way the CP has done.
    Thanks LJ.
    [B]Jim Polk
    Former/resigned Ruling Elder, Pilgrim Church, PCA
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania[/B]

    [B][I]Jud 1:3 . . .contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.[/I][/B]

    [B][I]God does whatever is right . . . right is whatever God does.[/I][/B]

  14. #54
    MrMerlin777's Avatar
    MrMerlin777 is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,168
    I haven't changed and truthfully, haven't seen an argument I found convincing for the doctrine of EP yet. But that's another thread, of which I'm sure there are dozens.
    Donald Jacobs
    Roanoke VA.
    Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

    Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

  15. #55
    Bladestunner316's Avatar
    Bladestunner316 is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    6,956
    Im getting there....
    Nathan Olaf Brandal

    "Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
    GEORGE WHITEFIELD TO JOHN WESLEY

    My Blog

  16. #56
    Semper Fidelis's Avatar
    Semper Fidelis is offline. 2 Timothy 2:24-25
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    22,618
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
    I don't know. There are several popular newer Psalters like the RPCNA work; but the old standard of Psalm singing Presbyterians was the 1650 Scottish Psalter available many different ways. A new version that is not a split leaf Psalter is The Comprehensive Psalter.
    What's your opinion of The Book of Psalms for Singing? That's what we have.
    Rich
    Ruling Elder, Licentiate, Under Care, Hope of Christ Church (PCA), Northern VA
    Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

    WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site.
    SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

  17. #57
    NaphtaliPress's Avatar
    NaphtaliPress is offline. Administrator
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    18,316
    Blog Entries
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by SemperFideles View Post
    What's your opinion of The Book of Psalms for Singing? That's what we have.
    When FPCR session was looking at psalters back in the very early 1990s, they chose the *1650 as still the better translation. That's all I know. I haven't done any personal comparison.
    Last edited by NaphtaliPress; 02-03-2007 at 08:15 AM. Reason: Dyslexia maybe. Meant 1650 not 1560
    Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
    • Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
    • Westminster Letter Press
    The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
    The Blue Banner Archive
    Calvin in the Hands of the Philistines: Did Calvin Bowl on the Sabbath?
    The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).
    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

  18. #58
    jaybird0827's Avatar
    jaybird0827 is offline. PuritanBoard Honor Roll
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,111
    Blog Entries
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by SemperFideles View Post
    What's your opinion of The Book of Psalms for Singing? That's what we have.
    Quote Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
    When FPCR session was looking at psalters back in the very early 1990s, they chose the 1560 (sic) as still the better translation. That's all I know. I haven't done any personal comparison.
    I agree with Chris, except that we sang from some of the BPS before we got our Scottish Metrical books and found ourselves much more comfortable with the 1650 as far as the words.

    Another advantage the 1650 has is that the music is simpler. You can sing every Psalm to the tune Amazing Grace if you like.

    You can do Azmon (O for a Thousand Tongues) or St. Columba ("How Sweet and Awful is the Place") or Crimond ("The Lord's My Shepherd") or St. Anne ("O God Our Help in Ages Past"), St. Agnes, Durham ("Jesus the Very Thought of Thee), St. Magnus ("The Head that Once was Crowned with Thorns"), and so on to vary things a bit.



    I also happen to be a precentor. I have a musical background but it's somewhat basic. I cannot handle the musical sophistication of the BPS.

    (* 1.5 for inflation)
    Last edited by jaybird0827; 02-03-2007 at 08:17 AM.
    ~Jay~
    Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
    disabled - cancer
    Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

  19. #59
    Joshua is offline. _
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    20,385
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird0827 View Post
    (* 1.5 for inflation)
    Josh
    CCRPC, RPCGA
    The Lord doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel. He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. - Ps. 147

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72