Closed Thread
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: A cultural issue

  1. #1
    LadyFlynt's Avatar
    LadyFlynt is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    8,873
    Thanks
    1,474
    Thanked 1,150 Times in 609 Posts

    A cultural issue

    Since we are to reach others...

    There are languages in which the psalms are not yet translated, have not been translated (with no apparent intent to do so), or not readily available (aka, I can find a Tsalgi NT easily, but the last time the entire scriptures was printed in Tsalagi is about 100yrs ago).

    EPers: would you imply that these groups simply are not permitted to sing in worship whatsoever?

    I find EPers to simply presume that everyone has the psalms, since all else is banned in their minds.



    (As much as I love the psalms, agree with singing the psalter, I find myself not quite as convinced as I once was)
    JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
    A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

    Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

    "Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  2. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to LadyFlynt For This Useful Post:

    Davidius (04-08-2009), Josiah (04-08-2009), Leslie (04-08-2009), Montanablue (04-08-2009), PresbyDane (04-08-2009), rescuedbyLove (04-08-2009)

  3. #2
    uberkermit's Avatar
    uberkermit is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    290
    Thanks
    104
    Thanked 116 Times in 60 Posts
    How is this an argument against EP? If anything, it is an argument to stop translating hymns into their language, and translate the Psalter!
    Rob S.
    New Creation RPC
    Kitchener, ON
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to uberkermit For This Useful Post:

    Augusta (04-08-2009), LAYMAN JOE (04-08-2009)

  5. #3
    Davidius is offline. Inactive User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    4,933
    Thanks
    884
    Thanked 820 Times in 504 Posts
    If EP is weakened by the necessity of the people waiting to sing until the Psalter is translated, is sola scriptura weakened by the inability of preaching or reading of the word to take place until the whole bible is translated?
    Davidius
    Husband of Emily
    Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
    Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  6. #4
    LadyFlynt's Avatar
    LadyFlynt is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    8,873
    Thanks
    1,474
    Thanked 1,150 Times in 609 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidius View Post
    If EP is weakened by the necessity of the people waiting to sing until the Psalter is translated, is sola scriptura weakened by the inability of preaching or reading of the word to take place until the whole bible is translated?
    There is sharing the Word, which does not require every word immediately translated for understanding. However, with the EP position, one would be preventing an entire culture or ethnicity from singing as a form of worship, even though singing as a form of worship is commanded.
    JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
    A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

    Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

    "Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to LadyFlynt For This Useful Post:

    KMK (04-08-2009)

  8. #5
    Skyler's Avatar
    Skyler is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    2,208
    Thanks
    335
    Thanked 525 Times in 364 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyFlynt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidius View Post
    If EP is weakened by the necessity of the people waiting to sing until the Psalter is translated, is sola scriptura weakened by the inability of preaching or reading of the word to take place until the whole bible is translated?
    There is sharing the Word, which does not require every word immediately translated for understanding. However, with the EP position, one would be preventing an entire culture or ethnicity from singing as a form of worship, even though singing as a form of worship is commanded.
    LadyFlynt,

    With all due respect, I don't think this is a particularly strong argument against exclusive psalmody. Translating a few psalms into the language of the people and setting them to music isn't a great obstacle--it probably wouldn't even take as long as composing new songs. The work done translating existing (non-Psalm) hymns could just as easily be put into translating Psalms.

    And what are they going to sing while they wait for a song to be composed/translated?
    Jonathan, A.A.S.
    Audio Engineer
    Reformed Baptist
    Ohio
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Skyler For This Useful Post:

    LAYMAN JOE (04-08-2009)

  10. #6
    LadyFlynt's Avatar
    LadyFlynt is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    8,873
    Thanks
    1,474
    Thanked 1,150 Times in 609 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyFlynt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidius View Post
    If EP is weakened by the necessity of the people waiting to sing until the Psalter is translated, is sola scriptura weakened by the inability of preaching or reading of the word to take place until the whole bible is translated?
    There is sharing the Word, which does not require every word immediately translated for understanding. However, with the EP position, one would be preventing an entire culture or ethnicity from singing as a form of worship, even though singing as a form of worship is commanded.
    LadyFlynt,

    With all due respect, I don't think this is a particularly strong argument against exclusive psalmody. Translating a few psalms into the language of the people and setting them to music isn't a great obstacle--it probably wouldn't even take as long as composing new songs. The work done translating existing (non-Psalm) hymns could just as easily be put into translating Psalms.

    And what are they going to sing while they wait for a song to be composed/translated?
    Well goodness, Skyler, I guess they would sing praises to our heavenly Father just as every other church does Translation is not near as simple as you make it sound. There are Psalms that would be extremely difficult to translate into Tsalagi, when it's a language that has no words or phrases that English has. You can say, "thank you" in Tsalagi, but you cannot say, "your welcome". You cannot say, "love" in Tsalagi, but you can say that you are, "jealous for them" or "hold them tight". You cannot say, "goodbye", you can only say, "till we meet/see each other again". There are many negative, "hateful" things mentioned in the Psalms...Tsalagi does not have words to say, "He shall bash their teeth". Can it be contrived? Possibly, in a manner. But no, Tsalagi is one of the many languages that there is no "word for word" translations as that is not how the language works. Difficult to understand, but it's not like translating from English into German.

    If you look at my signature: A we n' de Ya, ho. "A" does not mean anything...but it can mean many things or be part of many things. All depends on what it is grouped with. "ho" means nothing, and yet it means something here because of what it is grouped with. Group it with the wrong set of sounds and it again means nothing. You cannot say, "drown him". There are no words you can group together that say that.

    Sometimes I believe certain parts of the church expect the rest of the world to run the "European Way" rather than by "Scriptural Principles". (kinda like when a mennonite minister told me that Mary wore a net, "coffee filter" kapp and that's why they/I wore them...yeah, imagine his utter shock when I informed him they were made of plastic and plastic was not invented till last century. It's along the same lines of presumption in my book)

    Please note: I've been in a couple of EP churches; I know the arguments. My question is, are you then forbidding part of their worship.

    (btw, A we n' de Ya, ho is sung, not spoken. It is giving worship to the One that Created us. It is proclaiming that we are created and we are His)
    Last edited by LadyFlynt; 04-08-2009 at 04:25 PM.
    JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
    A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

    Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

    "Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  11. #7
    Davidius is offline. Inactive User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    4,933
    Thanks
    884
    Thanked 820 Times in 504 Posts
    Greek has untranslatable particles, too, so we aren't being Indo-European-centric. If it's going to be hard to translate the Psalter, it's presumably going to be hard to translate the rest of the bible, as well, but that doesn't mean they don't need a bible as their only rule for faith and practice.
    Davidius
    Husband of Emily
    Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
    Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Davidius For This Useful Post:

    Augusta (04-08-2009)

  13. #8
    LadyFlynt's Avatar
    LadyFlynt is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    8,873
    Thanks
    1,474
    Thanked 1,150 Times in 609 Posts
    It doesn't mean they should refrain from practice either (in this case, singing to the Lord as a part of worship).
    JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
    A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

    Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

    "Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  14. #9
    Skyler's Avatar
    Skyler is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    2,208
    Thanks
    335
    Thanked 525 Times in 364 Posts
    The problem I'm seeing with this, LadyFlynt, is that it could apply equally to translating the Psalms or the rest of the Bible. All of the arguments you've presented thus far can, I think, be reduced to absurdity by applying them to, say, the Gospels.
    Jonathan, A.A.S.
    Audio Engineer
    Reformed Baptist
    Ohio
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Skyler For This Useful Post:

    LAYMAN JOE (04-08-2009)

  16. #10
    LadyFlynt's Avatar
    LadyFlynt is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    8,873
    Thanks
    1,474
    Thanked 1,150 Times in 609 Posts
    No, they cannot, Skyler. Preaching is permitted, even if it's not directly quoting Scripture the entire time. The congregation is not required to read Scripture for themselves during worship, thus a lack of Bibles is not an issue. Only one having, understanding, and sharing is necessary for preaching. However, the congregation is commanded to sing. To say they must sing something that has not been translated, thus leaving them to disobey the command to sing, is contradictory and counterproductive.

    I've also been reading Pastor Greco's comments on the Greek and Hebrew understanding of words. I have to say, they lend much weight in the argument as well. It sounds more than like a preference being pushed as law.
    JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
    A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

    Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

    "Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  17. #11
    Davidius is offline. Inactive User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    4,933
    Thanks
    884
    Thanked 820 Times in 504 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyFlynt View Post
    No, they cannot, Skyler. Preaching is permitted, even if it's not directly quoting Scripture the entire time. The congregation is not required to read Scripture for themselves during worship, thus a lack of Bibles is not an issue. Only one having, understanding, and sharing is necessary for preaching. However, the congregation is commanded to sing. To say they must sing something that has not been translated, thus leaving them to disobey the command to sing, is contradictory and counterproductive.


    Reading the word is an element of worship...
    Davidius
    Husband of Emily
    Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
    Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  18. #12
    LadyFlynt's Avatar
    LadyFlynt is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    8,873
    Thanks
    1,474
    Thanked 1,150 Times in 609 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyFlynt View Post
    No, they cannot, Skyler. Preaching is permitted, even if it's not directly quoting Scripture the entire time. The congregation is not required to read Scripture for themselves during worship, thus a lack of Bibles is not an issue. Only one having, understanding, and sharing is necessary for preaching. However, the congregation is commanded to sing. To say they must sing something that has not been translated, thus leaving them to disobey the command to sing, is contradictory and counterproductive.


    Reading the word is an element of worship...
    Oh well, poor people will just have to not be permitted to worship...they must just sit quietly as the Quakers then. (as I stated, ONE person may have the Scriptures and translate ORALLY to the best of their ability...but to expect an entire congregation to sing something that they have not/cannot read is ridiculous. Nowhere is the reading of the Scriptures commanded as participation of the ENTIRE congregation, otherwise the illiterate are in sin for their lack)
    JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
    A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

    Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

    "Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to LadyFlynt For This Useful Post:

    Davidius (04-08-2009)

  20. #13
    LAYMAN JOE's Avatar
    LAYMAN JOE is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    841
    Thanks
    148
    Thanked 66 Times in 54 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyFlynt View Post
    No, they cannot, Skyler. Preaching is permitted, even if it's not directly quoting Scripture the entire time. The congregation is not required to read Scripture for themselves during worship, thus a lack of Bibles is not an issue. Only one having, understanding, and sharing is necessary for preaching. However, the congregation is commanded to sing. To say they must sing something that has not been translated, thus leaving them to disobey the command to sing, is contradictory and counterproductive.

    I've also been reading Pastor Greco's comments on the Greek and Hebrew understanding of words. I have to say, they lend much weight in the argument as well. It sounds more than like a preference being pushed as law.
    Forget about singing....
    How is the Preacher going to read the Scriptures to the folks if they can't understand it? Romans 10
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  21. #14
    LadyFlynt's Avatar
    LadyFlynt is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    8,873
    Thanks
    1,474
    Thanked 1,150 Times in 609 Posts
    He may translate portions ORALLY to the best of his ability. Again, this is different than the command that is given to a GROUP of people that do not hold these scriptures in their hands, in their language. So they should forego this aspect of worship until and IF someone takes the time to do so?
    JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
    A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

    Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

    "Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  22. #15
    LAYMAN JOE's Avatar
    LAYMAN JOE is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    841
    Thanks
    148
    Thanked 66 Times in 54 Posts
    In your scenario, I don't see why the Preacher could not have a Psalm ready to sing just as he has the Word to give. As you said, to the best of his ability.
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  23. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to LAYMAN JOE For This Useful Post:

    dbroyles (04-08-2009)

Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69