» Site Navigation | | | |  | 
10-16-2008, 08:24 AM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 796
Thanks: 91
Thanked 497 Times in 255 Posts
| | | Doug Wilson on Baptism
OK, so I finally found a book on paedobaptism that made a lot of sense to me: To a Thousand Generations by Doug Wilson. Unfortunately, I've come to find out that Doug is something of a Presbyterian arch-fiend, similar to the Joker or Riddler. So, is there anything in that book that would be outside of "mainline" Reformed thought?
__________________
Charlie Johnson
Downtown Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, student
| 
10-16-2008, 08:45 AM
|  | Dux Tyrranus | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Northern Virgnia
Posts: 17,833
Thanks: 2,453
Thanked 6,035 Times in 2,448 Posts
| | |
I wouldn't call him an arch fiend. As FV-friendly goes, he doesn't walk off cliffs in the same way as some of the other proponents do. I think there's a strange lack of Confessional integrity when he's tried to defend statements made by some former PCA pastors as if they were accidentally un-Confessional. I also think his (and others') ideas that the Confession goes a certain distance on the nature of the Sacraments and Union with Christ but that the Bible "fills it out" is filled with difficulties. Primarily, the things he says others are fleshing out are things that the Confession explicitly repudiates.
Let me just say that you can find better resources than Wilson on this subject. It is true that some Presbyterians have neglected hearth and home and the Covenantal responsibility that parent has for child. The cure for neglect is not a hard tack in the opposite direction where faithful parenting becomes a downpayment on a saved child. Nothing is ever quite expressed that way but all the subtlety and caution that goes with how we ought to understand election, the Covenant, and Sacraments is sometimes overshadowed by ideas that are easily confused. Of course, Wilson can always jump back over that line when accused that his language sounds un-Confessional but that doesn't prevent the ignorant and unstable from being led astray by reading his books.
Primarily, when it comes to the Confessional understanding of the issue, Wilson and those of various shades of FV want to make Baptism be the instrument for union with Christ. This is the place where neglect in one area has caused such a hard jerk to the opposite extreme that some drove off the cliff and become almost Romish in their doctrines. They want to be able to declare to their kids and to others: You're elect! Thus, they say that those that are Baptized are united to Christ in some sense. Union with Christ is conditional then upon Covenantal faithfulness: parents do your duty and members make sure you're faithful! If you're not then you will fall out of the Covenant, lose union with Christ (that you had in some sense), and you will no longer be elect.
The Reformed position is that the graces conferred by baptism only belong to those elect. Nobody is united to Christ unless he is elect and faith (not baptism) is the instrument of our justification. Baptism is a ministerial announcement and, though we benefit greatly from its graces, we ought not turn it into more than it is intended. We must preserve the unique benefits that flow from vital union with Christ that the elect alone enjoy. If we do not then we end up blending the things hidden with the things revealed. We end up thinking that men affect God's eternal pleasure for His elect. We end up thinking that we somehow must add our faithfulness to the equation of God's grace rather than simply clinging to Christ in simple faith and allowing the graces of justification to flow out into our sanctification.
The sad truth is that Wilson and others were trying to recover a healthy Covenantal understanding of their kids but, in their hubris, ignored the rich Reformed piety that already existed in the Catechisms and elsewhere that were never the root of the decline. By beating their own path, they ended up losing the Gospel itself. Perhaps Wilson hasn't gone as far as others but I'm convinced his carelessness with some of these truths has led others astray. True evangelical faith is that God justifies the un-Godly. Stop, do not pass Go. True evangelical faith is not that God will wait until you have a fully matured and sanctified faith and then justify you on the basis of the vitality and constancy of your faith. True evangelical faith is a simple trust that is given to men by God alone.
| | The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Semper Fidelis For This Useful Post: | | 
10-16-2008, 09:58 AM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 796
Thanks: 91
Thanked 497 Times in 255 Posts
| | |
I suppose why this particular book made more sense to me is because Wilson tried to start from a theology of children and then work to baptism. I've read The Case for Covenantal Infant Baptism and Herman Hanko's book on infant baptism. I'm currently reading Robert Rayburn's.
Wilson's book is from 1996. I don't know if that was before some of the FV problems developed. I would appreciate if anyone who has read it could direct me to some specifically problematic statements. To me, it sounds a lot like Michael Horton (sorry, Mike). I didn't pick up on anything that sounded particularly crazy, but I might not, since I'm Baptist and it all sounds a little strange to me.
| 
10-16-2008, 10:33 AM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hague, North Dakota
Posts: 3,063
Thanks: 981
Thanked 2,453 Times in 841 Posts
| |
The very best book is Marcel.
| | The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to greenbaggins For This Useful Post: | | 
10-16-2008, 11:56 AM
|  | Dux Tyrranus | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Northern Virgnia
Posts: 17,833
Thanks: 2,453
Thanked 6,035 Times in 2,448 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieJ I suppose why this particular book made more sense to me is because Wilson tried to start from a theology of children and then work to baptism. I've read The Case for Covenantal Infant Baptism and Herman Hanko's book on infant baptism. I'm currently reading Robert Rayburn's.
Wilson's book is from 1996. I don't know if that was before some of the FV problems developed. I would appreciate if anyone who has read it could direct me to some specifically problematic statements. To me, it sounds a lot like Michael Horton (sorry, Mike). I didn't pick up on anything that sounded particularly crazy, but I might not, since I'm Baptist and it all sounds a little strange to me. | I haven't read the books but I've read ante-FV Wilson works. He has always been someone I would read with a grain of salt - the type of book that contains some good material but then needs to be filtered through some maturity before presented to some people that might be led into a bad direction.
I don't know that working from children to baptism is the correct way of addressing the issue, especially with Wilson. I've read more than a few books and listened to hours of his material. Wilson tends to conflate wisdom literature into didactic principles. In fact, it is difficult to detect when he's actually used an opinion on how to apply a bit of wisdom literature, converted it into a didactic principle, and then uses that Wilsonian principle as the basis for more development. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised to find an edifice on the theology of children developed by him that is built on all these "principles" that is then used to come at the subject of baptism.
| 
10-16-2008, 11:56 AM
|  | Dux Tyrranus | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Northern Virgnia
Posts: 17,833
Thanks: 2,453
Thanked 6,035 Times in 2,448 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbaggins | I bought that earlier this summer. It's on my "To read" list.
| 
10-16-2008, 12:19 PM
|  | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sandy, Oregon
Posts: 2,063
Thanks: 453
Thanked 871 Times in 398 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbaggins |
__________________
Adam J. Myer
Slated for the Jan. 10th Chaplains Basic Officer Leadership Course
Estacada Christian Church
Sandy, Oregon Soli Deo Gloria | 
10-16-2008, 12:38 PM
|  | Drunk with Powder | | Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,103
Thanks: 2,778
Thanked 2,444 Times in 1,224 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbaggins | I tend to agree. However, in his debate with William Shisko, I remember James White referencing Marcel's book and claiming it taught baptismal regeneration, which is a charge that some have leveled against Wilson, I believe.
| 
10-16-2008, 01:07 PM
|  | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sandy, Oregon
Posts: 2,063
Thanks: 453
Thanked 871 Times in 398 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrow Man Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbaggins | I tend to agree. However, in his debate with William Shisko, I remember James White referencing Marcel's book and claiming it taught baptismal regeneration, which is a charge that some have leveled against Wilson, I believe. |
Hmmm. I've read it, and I don't remember anything in it that could be taken as favoring baptismal regeneration.
| 
10-16-2008, 01:21 PM
|  | Drunk with Powder | | Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,103
Thanks: 2,778
Thanked 2,444 Times in 1,224 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlute Hmmm. I've read it, and I don't remember anything in it that could be taken as favoring baptismal regeneration. | I've read large chunks of it, but I haven't read it cover to cover. However, I would be inclined to agree, though I could also see how Marcel could make a credobaptist "uncomfortable." I would have to go back and listen to the debate to be able to produce the precise quote, though.
| 
10-16-2008, 01:29 PM
|  | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sandy, Oregon
Posts: 2,063
Thanks: 453
Thanked 871 Times in 398 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrow Man though I could also see how Marcel could make a credobaptist "uncomfortable." | It's not like that would be a "first" | 
10-16-2008, 01:47 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Arlington, Texas
Posts: 163
Thanks: 55
Thanked 34 Times in 28 Posts
| | | Not a Wilson Fan...but
I'm not a huge Wilson Fan, but his book is very good and many folks who are new to the (paedo) side (friends of mine) find it very helpful. Have not read Marcel, but in this instance...I would recommend him.
__________________
Gage Browning (Layman)
Grace Community Presbyterian Church
PCA Fort Worth, Texas
| 
10-16-2008, 02:00 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 1,002 Times in 572 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrow Man Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbaggins | I tend to agree. However, in his debate with William Shisko, I remember James White referencing Marcel's book and claiming it taught baptismal regeneration, which is a charge that some have leveled against Wilson, I believe. | Key word: "claiming".
Marcel's book is excellent!
__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA
"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."
| 
10-16-2008, 02:02 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 1,002 Times in 572 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieJ OK, so I finally found a book on paedobaptism that made a lot of sense to me: To a Thousand Generations by Doug Wilson. Unfortunately, I've come to find out that Doug is something of a Presbyterian arch-fiend, similar to the Joker or Riddler. So, is there anything in that book that would be outside of "mainline" Reformed thought? | Charlie,
Keep in mind, several of Wilson's books were written before FV. Standing on the Promises is good, and in Easy Chairs Hard Words he specifically repudiates his later FV formulation of apostasy. I'm selling that book if you want it. All that to say, don't judge some of his earlier works by the standard of his later "tossing about with every wind of James Jordan".
Cheers,
| 
10-16-2008, 02:52 PM
| | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: x
Posts: 763
Thanks: 46
Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts
| | |
FWIW, I read To A Thousand Generations several years ago while a Baptist, and it laid the groundwork for my later transition to paedobaptism. I cannot remember anything that would be contrary to the WCF in the book.
__________________
x
| 
10-16-2008, 03:18 PM
|  | Puritanboard Postgraduate | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: Moncton NB Canada
Posts: 4,574
Thanks: 1,579
Thanked 929 Times in 484 Posts
| | |
Marcel may be a better theologian, but I would still give Wilson to a questioning baptist.
IMO Wilson is more easily understood by a modern evangelical. That said Marcel lays out a better case, it is just more dificult for the average 40 days of whatever evangelical christian.
__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Kevin For This Useful Post: | |  | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | |