Thread: Y'all have got me curious - post-trib rapture

Having a Southern Baptist background, a pre-trib rapture has been tatooed into my head, yet scouting around this board has honestly caused me to want to look into the topic a bit more. Someone commented that most pre-trib writers write from a pre-trib presupposition. Pre-trib is assumed, so everything proceeds from that. As I checked out various authors and speakers, I got that same impression. Matthew 24 does seem to indicate the rapture after the tribulation, and nothing seems to really contradict that.
Can anyone elaborate (Biblically) as to how a pre-trib rapture is not Biblically possible at all, and can you suggest book or study on the issue?
Thanks.

Matthew 24 doesn't indicate any kind of rapture at all, there simply is not a rapture in Matthew or any of the other books of the Bible. That's the first myth that has to go.

All of the events of Matthew 24 have to take place before many of the people who heard Jesus speak those things die. There is about a 40 year shelf life to the prophecies listed. The rapture doesn't come up in Matt 24. The rapture is a concocted sentiment based on a faulty interpretation of other scriptures.

Thanks for your opinion.
The gathering of the elect I can refer to as the "rapture."
I'm not talking about an issue of linguistics or words.
Your response was similar to those who endorse a pre-trib rapture. No Biblically explanatory discussion was provided, just a presupposition statement expressing an opinion or interpretation. I appreciate your response, but it was a bit vague.

Originally Posted by busdriver72

Having a Southern Baptist background, a pre-trib rapture has been tatooed into my head, yet scouting around this board has honestly caused me to want to look into the topic a bit more. Someone commented that most pre-trib writers write from a pre-trib presupposition. Pre-trib is assumed, so everything proceeds from that. As I checked out various authors and speakers, I got that same impression. Matthew 24 does seem to indicate the rapture after the tribulation, and nothing seems to really contradict that.
Can anyone elaborate (Biblically) as to how a pre-trib rapture is not Biblically possible at all, and can you suggest book or study on the issue?
Thanks.

The claim that premillennialism draws upon pre-trib premises is an odd way of phrasing it.

If you are talking about the view of people like my old prof, George Ladd, he was building upon the incohate notions of a millennium popular from the very beginning of the post apostolic era.

Bob Gundry's post-trib view is built on a solidly (but somewhat modified) dispensational framework. Ladd dismissed Gundry's book as dispi foolishness.

My preference for a non-premillennial book would be Riddlebarger's A Case for Amillennialism.

If you want arguments against the premill view, check out . . .

Critiques of Premillennialism
■Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism -- Charles Hill
■Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions -- Richard Pratt
■Rapture and Resurrection -- Greg Bahnsen
■What's A Thousand Years Among Friends (Kim Riddlebarger)
■Problems With Premillennialism by Sam Storms

IMHO, Pre-trib rapture is based on the dispensational premise of "two peoples of God," Israel (earthly) and the church (heavenly). In this scheme, the tribulation is viewed as Daniel's 70th week for Israel and the gentile church is not to be a part of it. So, the church must be removed -- and J. N. Darby accomplished this by a Pre-tribulation rapture as mis-interpreted from 1 Thess. 4.

I'm sorry Pastor Ralph, I wasn't trying to be vague but only brief. I was speaking to only a very small part of the argument and the premise that there is no rapture in Matthew 24. Now you have given a scriptural reference and I'll be happy to speak to that. You said that you can refer to 'the gathering of the elect' as the rapture' but in doing that is to ignore the use of those words in other portions of scripture.

Matthew 24:31: And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What tempts dispys to see a rapture here is not so much the word 'gather' but the word 'angels'. I don't think it's necessary to translate 'angelos' as the heavenly beings but as it's other meaning 'messengers'. The trumpet is the 'gospel message' calling God's scattered chosen.

Isaiah 58:1: Cry aloud, spare not; lift up your voice like a trumpet; tell My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

Jeremiah 6:17: Also, I set watchmen over you, saying, 'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!' But they said, 'We will not listen.'

The 'gathering' is just that, not a 'rapture' but a calling together of God's chosen who have been scattered to the four winds. Here are a bunch more verses speaking of this same gathering.

Psalm 107:2–3:Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom He has redeemed from the hand of the enemy, and gathered out of the lands, from the east and from the west, from the north and from the south.

Deuteronomy 30:3–4: The LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you.

Isaiah 11:11–12: It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar, from Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 27:12–13: In that day the Lord will start his threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. And it will come about in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 60:3–4: The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. "Lift up your eyes all around, and see: They all gather together, they come to you; Your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be nursed at your side."

Zechariah 2:10–13: Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD. "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!"

The fulfillment of these verses can be seen in these New Testament passages:

John 11:49–52: And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish." Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Hebrews 12:22–24: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Ephesians 1:7–10: In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Dear Ralph,

Generally speaking, most Christians believe in a rapture of sorts, according to

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

It's the reaction against dispensationalism that denies this, rather than scriptural proof. The rapture, however, does not necessitate the seven year tribulation period. But to deny the rapture is to deny the hope that Paul confirms in this passage.
If one subscribes to a seven year tribulation period, then the answer will probably need to be found in Revelation, for that's where most of the credible evidence for a seven year tribulation period is found (not Daniel, but Rev. 11:3, 12:6). I can't help much beyond that because I really am still wondering if the seven year scenario is biblical, let alone the timing of the rapture. You're on solid footing with premillennialism though.

There is no 'rapture' in the text 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 and you are correct in noting that there is no 7 year period, before or after, in the context.

This is not the resurrected believers going up to heaven with Christ, this is the final coming of our Lord, the Victor, the Conqueror and just as the ancient hearers would have understood, His chosen are coming up to meet the King on his way to the earth. We aren't going, we're coming, in full procession, with the Victorious King.

Regardless of how you want to word it, it's still a rapture.

ἁρπάζω.

“To take something forcefully” (firmly, quickly or rapaciously). Thus a. “to steal” (Jos. Ant., 20, 214 of robbers), b. “To capture in war.”1 In the NT the word is used in parables which speak of the conflict between the kingdom of God and that of Satan: ἁ λύκος ἁρπάζει (steals) τὰ πρόβατα, Jn. 10:12; οὐχ ἁρπάσει (forcefully snatch) τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου, Jn. 10:28, 29; Mt. 12:29 (the battle between the strong man and the stronger): τὰ σκεύη αὐτοῦ ἁρπάσαι. c. With the thought of speed: Jos. Ant., 6, 238: ἁρπάσας τὸ δόρυ ἀνεπήδησεν (Saul); also Jd. 23: to “snatch” out of the fire. d. “To take rapaciously”: Epict. Diss., IV, 7, 22: ἰσχαδοκάρυά τις διαρριπτεῖ· τὰ παιδία ἁρπάζει. e. “To take a man by force”: Chrys. Beat. Philog., VI, 2 (MPG, 48, 751): ἐκ μέσης τῆς ἀγορᾶς ἁρπασθείς, In. 6:15; Ac. 23:10. Similarly in Mt. 13:19: “to take away.” f. To denote the rapture of visions. In this sense it does not occur in the LXX,2 which instead uses αἴρειν at 3 Βας. 18:12; Ez. 3:14 and ἀναλαμβάνειν at Ez. 3:12. It is found, however, in the pseudepigr.: Apc. Mos. 37; Apc. Esr. 5:7; Gr. Bar. passim.3 In the NT it occurs at 2 C. 12:2,4 (vision); 1 Th. 4:17; Rev. 12:5 (“to catch up or away”); Ac. 8:39—always expressing the mighty operation of God.

Since ἁρπάζω does not here mean either to bring in by force or to plunder,4 only three alternatives are open in the difficult saying at Mt. 11:12:5 ἀπὸ τῶν ἡμερῶν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται, καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν. a. It may mean that the kingdom of God is stolen, i.e., taken away from men and closed to them;6 b. it may mean that violent men culpably try to snatch it to themselves; or c. it may mean that men forcefully take it in the good sense. Linguistically all three are possible (→ supra, a.-d.). The first and third are to be taken most seriously. The former is suggested by the emphatic use of βιάζομαι, by the correspondence between βιάζεται and βιασταί and perhaps by the Matthean context. The latter is supported by the fact that the decisively new thing since the appearance of John the Baptist7 is the powerful irruption of the kingdom of God. This is the presupposition for its being taken. It demands resolute earnestness on the part of men if they are to enter it. Furthermore, the idea of men themselves taking away the kingdom of God is strange and is hardly supported by such parallels as Mt. 13:19, where the evil one snatches away the seed and not the kingdom, or Mt. 23:13, where closing the kingdom to men is not quite the same as taking it away. On this whole passage → βιάζομαι.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey William Bromiley and Gerhard Friedrich, electronic ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-c1976), 1:472-473.

It doesn't necessitate a rapture in the dispensational sense. But it's been understood as a "rapture" since the early church. The Vulgate translated this rapiemur, which I understand is the the first person, plural, future, indicative, passive of the verb (rapturo, rapio, rapere, rapui, raptus). My Latin is in a rust bucket though.

There is no 'rapture' in the text 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 and you are correct in noting that there is no 7 year period, before or after, in the context.

This is not the resurrected believers going up to heaven with Christ, this is the final coming of our Lord, the Victor, the Conqueror and just as the ancient hearers would have understood, His chosen are coming up to meet the King on his way to the earth. We aren't going, we're coming, in full procession, with the Victorious King.

"...dead in Christ will rise..." I think is pretty plain reference to a resurrection.
"...caught up....in the clouds....in the air..." Again, plain reading of the text indicates there is a catching up/away. It doesn't say "into heaven" though. It does refer to a meeting place not on the earth itself, and we do return with Him. It's not inappropriate to use the word "rapture" to describe it.
You can keep saying there is no "rapture" in the text, and that is true as far as the literal text, but you will not find the word "trinity" or "incarnate" in any text either. This does not stop me from referring to the Trinity or the incarnation of Christ.

What tempts dispys to see a rapture here is not so much the word 'gather' but the word 'angels'. I don't think it's necessary to translate 'angelos' as the heavenly beings but as it's other meaning 'messengers'. The trumpet is the 'gospel message' calling God's scattered chosen.

I think I see what you're saying. The gathering of the elect does not specifically mean that the elect are literally picked up and carried into the air or clouds to meet the Lord, but that they could be gathered to an earthly location. And as a "dispy," no....I was focusing not on "angels" but on the word "gather" as well as the means...angels. The word "gather" is very generic in meaning.

IMHO, Pre-trib rapture is based on the dispensational premise of "two peoples of God," Israel (earthly) and the church (heavenly). In this scheme, the tribulation is viewed as Daniel's 70th week for Israel and the gentile church is not to be a part of it. So, the church must be removed -- and J. N. Darby accomplished this by a Pre-tribulation rapture as mis-interpreted from 1 Thess. 4.

I had not heard that one before.

If you want arguments against the premill view, check out . . .

Critiques of Premillennialism
■Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism -- Charles Hill
■Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions -- Richard Pratt
■Rapture and Resurrection -- Greg Bahnsen
■What's A Thousand Years Among Friends (Kim Riddlebarger)
■Problems With Premillennialism by Sam Storms

Thanks for the info!

It might be helpful understanding that reformed theology, very generally, understands Christ to be ruling from Heaven, right now.

The invisible reign of Christ (He is in Heaven now) is being made visible on earth, mainly through His Body (the Church). This is a real rule, a "millennial" one in that it is "for the ages" and it is physically going on right now. It's not 1,000 years on man's (Julian?) calendar, but describes the complete period of time UNTIL Christ returns as judge.

At His second coming, all men will be raised, believers and unbelievers. This might be called a "rapture" of sorts because it is an incredible worldwide miracle of raising the dead to judgment, Christ coming in the air, etc.

So, when we use the word "rapture" as meaning a "catching away" something like that does occur at the second coming.

But, this is not to say what is often meant by the term "The rapture" by modern dispensational premillennialism. In that context, as you know from your background, it means a separate event, removing only Christians from the earth before the Lord's return with 7years (again according to man's calendar) of tribulation.

Reformed theology looks at the tribulations as over the history of His people on the earth, and not limited to 7 of man's years but from God's perfected view of history. Since God is eternal, it is hard for us as His creatures to really understand this.

I don't have all the details worked out, even in interpreting some of the apocalyptic passages. Some of the cataclysmic events represented happen either figuratively over time or in connection with the Second Coming.

Remember, "amillennialism" is a term assigned to it fairly recently in church history as a term created by modern dispensational premillenialism. Historically, what is now called amillennialism always believed in "millennium" but a realized, or present one.

Huge topic, but hope that is a helpful start.

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Matthew 24 doesn't indicate any kind of rapture at all, there simply is not a rapture in Matthew or any of the other books of the Bible. That's the first myth that has to go.

Now THAT is as plainspoken as it gets!

"caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Pretty straightforward/plainspoken. The definition of the verb "caught up" is pretty plain too, according to the TDNT article above. I don't know why it has to be so difficult to simply see it as a rapture/catching up/snatching away. Sounds like an overreactive dispensationalismphobia of some sorts...

Joe, it's not that we are being dispy phobic, it's just that the dispys have OWNED that word and they have defined that word since Mr. Scoffield wrote his notes. Using the word now is like using the word 'gay'. As much as I miss the word that meant 'happy and carefree' I just can't get the same mileage out of the word anymore.

Rapture may mean 'caught up' or 'transport' and the Vulgate contained the word but the dispys have turned it into a word that either precedes, follows or cuts midway into a seven year period of tribulation. You may stubbornly use the word but it's just not efficient in meaning unless you are dispensational.

Stubbornly? Actually, I've heard many amils use the term without concern. I've heard them defend the rapture, the very word, as an eschatological event. And, I submit, it fits well in historical chiliasm, which is well within the realm of reformed theology.

It might be helpful understanding that reformed theology, very generally, understands Christ to be ruling from Heaven, right now.

The invisible reign of Christ (He is in Heaven now) is being made visible on earth, mainly through His Body (the Church). This is a real rule, a "millennial" one in that it is "for the ages" and it is physically going on right now. It's not 1,000 years on man's (Julian?) calendar, but describes the complete period of time UNTIL Christ returns as judge.

At His second coming, all men will be raised, believers and unbelievers. This might be called a "rapture" of sorts because it is an incredible worldwide miracle of raising the dead to judgment, Christ coming in the air, etc.

So, when we use the word "rapture" as meaning a "catching away" something like that does occur at the second coming.

But, this is not to say what is often meant by the term "The rapture" by modern dispensational premillennialism. In that context, as you know from your background, it means a separate event, removing only Christians from the earth before the Lord's return with 7years (again according to man's calendar) of tribulation.

Reformed theology looks at the tribulations as over the history of His people on the earth, and not limited to 7 of man's years but from God's perfected view of history. Since God is eternal, it is hard for us as His creatures to really understand this.

I don't have all the details worked out, even in interpreting some of the apocalyptic passages. Some of the cataclysmic events represented happen either figuratively over time or in connection with the Second Coming.

Remember, "amillennialism" is a term assigned to it fairly recently in church history as a term created by modern dispensational premillenialism. Historically, what is now called amillennialism always believed in "millennium" but a realized, or present one.

Huge topic, but hope that is a helpful start.
__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina

That was helpful, Scott. Thank you!

dispensationalismphobia

dispy

Man, y'all have given me some new words to try out on folks.

Christ currently rules on earth, and it is a real rule? Interesting.
I can see that He rules within the body of Christ, but the body of Christ does not rule the earth, thus the earth is not under His rule (through the church) in an effective, practical sense. If it is a "reign" it can only be in a very loose sense of the word. I'll have to think on that one.
I'm not sure how Daniel's "weeks" should be divided up, but a PM I received got me to thinking about "tribulation" in general.
In Matt 24, it does seem logical that Christ was speaking of the generation contemporary with Him at that time. The time of tribulation would come before that generation passed away. It has happened, and that generation has passed away. But I can't help but notice the things Christ said which identifies the "end times," "signs of the times" or the "tribulation."
- False Christs & False Prophets (false religions....etc)
- War & international strife
- Famine & other type disasters
- Persecution (hated for His name's sake)
I also can't help but notice that these things began back then and still continue even today.
Then I noticed that the text doesn't say that "these things" will pass away, end or stop. The signs or indicators began, and have not stopped even to this day. If the tribulation has began, it is still going. Perhaps "the" is not a good way to refer to this tribulation. Perhaps Christ was simply saying that tribulation was to come and would continue until His return. Or perhaps "the" tribulation is "great" not only due to the events, but the length of time.
It is ended at the return of Christ for the sake of the elect who are then gathered. Maybe?

Ephesians 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

That is a very real rule. When He was raised He was confirmed as Lord, King, Ruler, Sovereign over all things heavenly and earthly. All things are under his feet, subject to him. Nothing happens outside of his sphere of rule, power and authority. He has been building his church. We used to hide in catacombs, now we freely preach the Gospel to the world.

Originally Posted by busdriver72

Christ currently rules on earth, and it is a real rule? Interesting.
I can see that He rules within the body of Christ, but the body of Christ does not rule the earth, thus the earth is not under His rule (through the church) in an effective, practical sense. If it is a "reign" it can only be in a very loose sense of the word. I'll have to think on that one.

That is a very real rule. When He was raised He was confirmed as Lord, King, Ruler, Sovereign over all things heavenly and earthly. All things are under his feet, subject to him. Nothing happens outside of his sphere of rule, power and authority. He has been building his church. We used to hide in catacombs, now we freely preach the Gospel to the world.

Yes, I agree with that. That's not exactly what I meant.
If you believe Christ has always existed (in the beginning with God) then He has always reigned in that sense....He has always been soverign over all things heavenly and earthly since the beginning. All things were created through Him, for Him, and he upholds all things by the word of His power. I wasn't speaking in that sense, but I do agree.
Yes, we did used to hide in catacombs. In some places we freely preach the gospel....but in some places we do not. We DO preach, but not freely and without restraint. There is still persecution of Christians around the world...if all of it was reported we would be shocked. There are also many areas of the world where to share the gospel is to risk one's life.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,536238,00.html
Even here in the U.S.A. there is growing resistance to the public sharing of the gospel and expression of our faith.
Thanks for your input.
I appreciate y'alls patience and courtesy.