Saving Faith?

INsearch · #1 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 12:38 AM

So I have always had a problem even as a young kid of.... well believing myself (I guess we could call it this) Like I would even read a medicine bottle with my name on it several times to make sure I am not somehow fooling myself into actually seeing my name (weird I know) When I was younger and thought I was Christian I used to say "Amen" like 20 times just to make sure I said it (once again.. weird) So as you can imagine I easily feel the pull of God but the second I put faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins, I immediately begin to doubt my faith. My mind begins to go crazy (for lack of a better word) and I become haunted by my mind just constantly going "Josh you probably don't really believe" or "how do you know that you aren't just SAYING you believe?" allot of times I will worry like crazy that I am somehow tricking myself into believing. And lots of times I will feel like I just pay lip service, but am I really believing? am I really sorry for my sins? well I am pretty sure I am! I mean I feel in a way haunted by them each day and realize that its my sins and rotten self that condemns me and will send me to hell if is wasn't for Jesus sacrifice on the cross. Even as I say this I am plagued by the thoughts "what if you actually don't feel bad? are you sure you aren't just tricking yourself?" I am a naturally panicky unsure kinda guy (I suffer from a panic disorder and such) Heck in wood class I don't trust myself to do any finishing work because I am way to unsure about my ability to do so. I know somewhere in the bible it says that God doesn't give anyone like a spirit of fear (but I am obviously in fear of my own motives and myself) How do I know what true faith is? How do I notice it? I have only been a Christian for a few days, I became one earlier this week, and quickly fell away (stupid! stupid!) but I prayed and asked for forgiveness and came back, but I am fearful of not having saving faith. Supposedly I had been saved many years before this, and then fell away and became "re-saved

" like last year (last year being my most "successful" I evangelized and my family even commented on the change I had) but then I fell away, I always eventually get this draw back the Christ (I hope its a draw) and I come back, but it never seems to stick and I truly believe it has to do with my prior mindset that I am the one the does the prayer and gets myself saved. So can any of you guys help me out with this? Sorry if this seems like such a loaded question.

**turmeric** · #2 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 01:32 AM

Have you ever been evaluated for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder? Some of what you're describing sounds like it. John Bunyan also had similar fears and symptoms.

Faith is something God gives you, not something you do. The best cure I've found for lack of assurance is to focus on Christ and what He has done for us, rather than how we are doing. Try to read and think about the truths in the book of Romans; the imputed righteousness of Christ, His atonement for us, etc, rather than whether you are believing properly or not.

INsearch · #3 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 09:30 AM

Thank you I will make sure to do that

Also I know that the Faith is given to me, which is part of the reason I am so darn confused as well, but thanks for recommending the scriptures.

(am I mistaken or not? The book of Romans is kinda hard to read isn't it?)

APuritansMind · #4 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 10:26 AM

Joshua,

2 Peter 1:1-10 may help you as well. If you trust in Christ for salvation, and show evidence of regeneration in your heart, then you will begin to see Christian character traits. These character traits will increase as you mature in Christ (Galatians 5:22-23 may also be helpful).

Note below that Peter describes the pilgrim's faith as that of "equal standing" and that all of the character traits are added to faith:

2 Peter 1:1-10 ESV Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (2) May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. (3) His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, (4) by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. (5) For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, (6) and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, (7) and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. (8) For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. (10) Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

INsearch · #5 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APuritansMind

Joshua,

2 Peter 1:1-10 may help you as well. If you trust in Christ for salvation, and show evidence of regeneration in your heart, then you will begin to see Christian character traits. These character traits will increase as you mature in Christ (Galatians 5:22-23 may also be helpful).

Note below that Peter describes the pilgrim's faith as that of "equal standing" and that all of the character traits are added to faith:

2 Peter 1:1-10 ESV Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (2) May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. (3) His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, (4) by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. (5) For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, (6) and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, (7) and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. (8) For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. (10) Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

Thank you

So by what 2 Peter 1:1-10 says I should be trying to add virtue, Knowledge (bible?) and self control and all that? these are evidences of saving faith correct? even after just coming back after back sliding just yesterday, I realize that I am no longer as snappy (self-control) because I am a easily irritated angry guy as well, and I notice the usual things that would have me yelling I am not (tho I get a little twing in my stomach from it I don't act on it because I know I shouldn't) heck tho I don't want to I have been helping my sister with her room when asked (usually I would be very irritated by now

but I'm not.) To bad tho I haven't be a Christian long enough to see the fruits at the moment (so that's a little discouraging)

**Prufrock** · #6 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 10:38 AM

Joshua,

Meg's words were wise ones. Remember -- your faith and your repentance will never be perfect, and if our salvation were left to the quality of our belief or hatred of sin, none would ever see the streets of the New Jerusalem -- Peter denied his Lord thrice; David, who had been given all, stole a man's wife and killed him to cover it up; Abraham pretended Sarah was his sister again, after he had already been reproved once for the same act; Adam, head of humanity and the image of God upon the earth, created in uprightness and given all, even he yet needlessly broke the commandment of God -- but far from leaving him to his just desserts, God "went out of his way" to make a new covenant with him, a promise of free and gracious life. These things are all by God's mercy, promised in Christ to men whose faith seemed to fail miserably at times. Do not look to your own faith, or your own repentance; look to nothing but Christ's death and resurrection for your assurance and comfort, and let your faith and repentance flow from this. Your faith will not be perfect, though it will (in general) continue to grow by the grace of our Lord; Christ's work is.

INsearch · #7 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Joshua,

Meg's words were wise ones. Remember -- your faith and your repentance will never be perfect, and if our salvation were left to the quality of our belief or hatred of sin, none would ever see the streets of the New Jerusalem -- Peter denied his Lord thrice; David, who had been given all, stole a man's wife and killed him to cover it up; Abraham pretended Sarah was his sister again, after he had already been reproved once for the same act; Adam, head of humanity and the image of God upon the earth, created in uprightness and given all, even he yet needlessly broke the commandment of God -- but far from leaving him to his just desserts, God "went out of his way" to make a new covenant with him, a promise of free and gracious life. These things are all by God's mercy, promised in Christ. Do not look to your own faith, or your own repentance; look to nothing but Christ's death and resurrection for your assurance and comfort, and your faith and repentance flow from this. Your faith will not be perfect; Christ's work is.

Thank you Paul

I read somewhere yesterday on apuritansmind website and it said something about faith never being perfect, and that it could be the most rag tag faith

thanks for this post it is very helpful

the only thing I should be concerned about is Christ! tho I feel weary about how strong my faith is, and weary about all the doubts and crazy things that pop in my head... I really shouldn't worry about them, if anything worrying about such things just proves I have faith... correct? thanks guys for the replies so far.

Ex Nihilo · #8 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 12:19 PM

Joshua, I was just reading this passage from Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices by Thomas Brooks yesterday, and I thought of it when I read this post. The whole book is very useful. I am editing the passage out of necessity, and the parts I leave out may be the most useful! From pages 148-151:

Quote:

DEVICE 2: By working them to make false definitions of their graces. Satan knows, that as false definitions of sin wrong the soul one way, so false definitions of grace wrong the soul another way.

I will instance only in faith: Oh how doth Satan labour with might and main to work men to make false definitions of faith! Some he works to define faith too high, as that it is a full assurance of the love of God to a man's soul in particular, or a full persuasion of the pardon and remission of a man's own sins in particular. Saith Satan, What dost that talk of faith? Faith is an assurance of the love of God, and of the pardon of sin; and this thou hast not; thou knowest thou art far off from this; therefore thou hast no faith. And by drawing men to make such a false definition of faith, he keeps them in a sad, doubting, and questioning condition, and makes them spend their days in sorrow and sighing, so that tears are their drink, and sorrow is their meat, and sighing is their work all the day long.

[...]

Remedy (1). The first remedy against this device of Satan is, solemnly to consider, That there may be true faith, yea, great measures of faith, where there is no assurance. [...]

Remedy (2). The second remedy against this device of Satan is, solemnly to consider, That the God in the Scripture doth define faith otherwise. God defines faith to be the receiving of Christ -- 'As many as received him, to them he gave this privilege to be sons of God' (John 1. 12). 'To as many as believed on his name' -- to be a cleaving of the soul unto God, though no joy, but afflictions, attend the soul (Act. II. 23). Yea, the Lord defines faith to be a coming to God in Christ, and often to a resting and staying, rolling of the soul upon Christ. It is safest and sweetest to define as God defines, both vices and graces. [...]

Remedy (3). The third remedy against this device of Satan is, seriously to consider this, That there may be true faith where there is much doubtings. Witness those frequent sayings of Christ to his disciplines, 'Why are ye afraid, O ye of little faith?' Persons may be truly believing who nevertheless are sometimes doubting. In the same persons that the fore-mentioned scriptures speak of, you may see their faith commended and their doubts condemned, which doth necessarily suppose the presence of both.

Remedy (4). The fourth remedy against this device of Satan is, solemnly to consider, That assurance is an effect of faith; therefore it cannot be faith.. The cause cannot be the effect, nor the root the fruit. [...]

INsearch · #9 (**permalink**) 05-25-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Nihilo

Joshua, I was just reading this passage from Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices by Thomas Brooks yesterday, and I thought of it when I read this post. The whole book is very useful. I am editing the passage out of necessity, and the parts I leave out may be the most useful! From pages 148-151:

Quote:

DEVICE 2: By working them to make false definitions of their graces. Satan knows, that as false definitions of sin wrong the soul one way, so false definitions of grace wrong the soul another way.

I will instance only in faith: Oh how doth Satan labour with might and main to work men to make false definitions of faith! Some he works to define faith too high, as that it is a full assurance of the love of God to a man's soul in particular, or a full persuasion of the pardon and remission of a man's own sins in particular. Saith Satan, What dost that talk of faith? Faith is an assurance of the love of God, and of the pardon of sin; and this thou hast not; thou knowest thou art far off from this; therefore thou hast no faith. And by drawing men to make such a false definition of faith, he keeps them in a sad, doubting, and questioning condition, and makes them spend their days in sorrow and sighing, so that tears are their drink, and sorrow is their meat, and sighing is their work all the day long.

[...]

Remedy (1). The first remedy against this device of Satan is, solemnly to consider, That there may be true faith, yea, great measures of faith, where there is no assurance. [...]

Remedy (2). The second remedy against this device of Satan is, solemnly to consider, The the God in the Scripture doth define faith otherwise. God defines faith to be the receiving of Christ -- 'As many as received him, to them he gave this privilege to be sons of God' (John 1. 12). 'To as many as believed on his name' -- to be a cleaving of the soul unto God, though no joy, but afflictions, attend the soul (Act. II. 23). Yea, the Lord defines faith to be a coming to God in Christ, and often to a resting and staying, rolling of the soul upon Christ. It is safest and sweetest to define as God defines, both vices and graces. [...]

Remedy (3). The third remedy against this device of Satan is, seriously to consider this, That there may be true faith where there is much doubtings. Witness those frequent sayings of Christ to his disciplines, 'Why are ye afraid, O ye of little faith?' Persons may be truly believing who nevertheless are sometimes doubting. In the same persons that the fore-mentioned scriptures speak of, you may see their faith commended and their doubts condemned, which doth necessarily suppose the presence of both.

Remedy (4). The fourth remedy against this device of Satan is, solemnly to consider, That assurance is an effect of faith; therefore it cannot be faith.. The cause cannot be the effect, nor the root the fruit. [...]

Hey this is truly helpful! I really appreciate this! it almost touched on my problem exactly! Satan is putting in my head completely wrong definitions of faith, and Grace thus I am troubled by my condition doubting my faith

this post has helped. I just need to remember my faith is the Belief in Jesus Christ dying on the cross for my sins, and raising again on the third day

that is what my faith is in.