Can someone tell me what this is? In layman's terms pretty please?

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Polly
wife and mom
participating in an OPC church plant effort in Collierville, TN
living in N MS

From the context we see that the bridegroom (Jesus) has come to make all things new for the bridegroom (church) because this statement comes out of or follows the previous story about Jesus eating with sinners and it is followed up with Jesus teaching on the Sabbath as the Son of Man. In both accounts we see Jesus changes our expectation of what the Father does/did through His Son, and how that changes our relationship with Him.

For we almost entirely miss the point of Jesus’ address if we think he is merely addressing the objection to the lack of the disciples fasting. That is the occasion but the actual substance is much greater. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises (as 'symbolized' by the person of John the Baptist); He is the goal of the law (Romans 10:4)

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)

Thank you, and I guess I should have been more specific. I am referring to the EPC and New Wineskins.

Someone shared with us that their PCUSA church left for the EPC and referred to New Wineskins. I didn't want to assume I knew exactly what they were talking about, but that was an *aside* to the topic of discussion and the time was not such that I could go down that trail.

I believe what she's asking about is not what "new wineskins" are in the context of the New Testament, but in the context of today's church.

"New Wineskins" is a (supposedly) conservative wing of the PCUSA, who reject the recent rulings and move toward full acceptance of homosexuals in ministry and the life of the church, and who are (supposedly) committed to Scripture. Churches who are in this group are moving toward changing to the EPC in some numbers, and probably will begin more frequently to do this.

While they reject the extreme liberalism of the PCUSA, though, they do not in point of fact accept ALL of Scripture's teachings on roles in the church - they (those I know directly about) are steadfastly for women's ordination into the pastorate and the eldership - and therefore the EPC is their target denomination by and large if they are leaving the PCUSA. The PCA and OPC would of course never accept them with their ordination views.

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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Sorry Polly. And here I was basking in the glory of my wonderful and well thought out response to your query, all the while missing the intent of the post.

I thought your response was very good, and it was my fault for not being more clear with my question.

Todd, thank you. So, a church that made such a move is making a step *toward* being more conservative as far as the PCUSA is involved, but compared to the PCA/OPC, it would still not be considered conservative? And not all *New Wineskin* churches would embrace women in leadership?

Are any, or all, EPC churches *reformed* or *confessional* in their doctrine?

Even beyond this particular conversation, we know of a former PCA pastor who left the PCA for the EPC. We are just trying to understand what all of this *means*. LOL!

This is only my opinion as one not involved with the EPC or PCUSA.

I wouldn't say that becoming a New Wineskins church means a PCUSA congregation is "becoming more conservative" - but rather they are taking a step to self-identify as on the more conservative side of the PCUSA (which isn't saying much, considering how far left the PCUSA really is).

I would not assume that all New Wineskins churches are open to ordaining women, but that may not be accurate - I only assume this because I believe it is very rare for a PCUSA church not to ordain or accept the ordination of women. I suspect that probably New Wineskins churches would be among those who would refuse to do so (but it may very well actually be mandated in the PCUSA that you ordain at least some women to the eldership).

I would not refer to the EPC as a confessional denomination. It might be that some EPC congregations are closer to being confessional, but the denomination's views on the gifts of the spirit and on women's ordination show them not to be confessional. Individual mileage may vary of course.

If a pastor leaves the PCA for the EPC that would mean, I believe, that he is on the left edge of the PCA and probably not terribly confessional himself. THis is based only on the denominational tendencies of the EPC, but I think it's probably relatively accurate. I can't imagine why a pastor who considers himself confessional would make a move toward liberalism and away from confessional adherence in terms of the denomination he's moving to.

Thank you again Todd.

I am realizing how very confusing all of this is! LOL!