Is the New Covenant brand-spankin' new, or renewed?

Pergamum · #1 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 09:03 PM

I just heard a sermon on Galatians 4 contrasting the "old" and "new" covenant. The pastor stressed the "newness" of this covenant.

Was this new covenant brand-spanking new or renewed?

This pastor contrasted Moses with the old covenant versus Jesus with the new covenant.

I had always thought Moses and Jesus would have made good friends, but apparently Jesus undoes what Moses did. I had always thought that the law was gracious and that grace was lawful, but this pastor (and many others that I knew) are not willing to say anything good about the law except that it kills.

Especially you calvy babdists out there...have you encountered this form of "New New Covenant Theology" as espoused by the 4 seeds of Abraham (Reisenger) and others?

**Herald** · #2 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 09:05 PM

Pergy, I'm aware of Reisenger's views, but I don't take him seriously on most issues.

As far as the title of your thread; I subscribe to a totally new New Covenant, not a refreshed or renewed covenant. But then again, that's why I'm a Baptist and not a Presbyterian.

Pergamum · #3 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 09:17 PM

A lot of the pastors that support me like Reisenger. A few have even agreed with him in his awful book "On tablets of Stone" I think is the name when he speaks of Christ "abrogating" the law of Moses.

Have you heard of "New Covenant Theology" and does it effect anyone around you?

-----Added 6/8/2009 at 09:17:20 EST-----

http://http://www.amazon.com/New-Cov.../dp/1928965113

http://http://www.puritanboard.com/f...-trains-47511/

**Herald** · #4 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

A lot of the pastors that support me like Reisenger. A few have even agreed with him in his awful book "On tablets of Stone" I think is the name when he speaks of Christ "abrogating" the law of Moses.

Have you heard of "New Covenant Theology" and does it effect anyone around you?

-----Added 6/8/2009 at 09:17:20 EST-----

http://http://www.amazon.com/New-Cov.../dp/1928965113

http://http://www.puritanboard.com/f...-trains-47511/

I've heard of it, and no, it doesn't effect anyone around me. It's really not a Reformed Baptist theology, although it is found among some Calvinistic Baptists.

Scott1 · #5 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter VII
Of God's Covenant with Man

I. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of Him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He has been pleased to express by way of covenant.[1]

II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works,[2] wherein life was promised to Adam; and in him to his posterity,[3] upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.[4]

III. Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,[5] commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved,[6] and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.[7]

IV. This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in scripture by the name of a testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed.[8]

V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel:[9] under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;[10] which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,[11] by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.[12]

VI. Under the Gospel, when Christ, the substance,[13] was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper:[14] which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,[15] to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;[16] and is called the New Testament.[17] There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.[18]

.

Pergamum · #6 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

A lot of the pastors that support me like Reisenger. A few have even agreed with him in his awful book "On tablets of Stone" I think is the name when he speaks of Christ "abrogating" the law of Moses.

Have you heard of "New Covenant Theology" and does it effect anyone around you?

-----Added 6/8/2009 at 09:17:20 EST-----

http://http://www.amazon.com/New-Cov.../dp/1928965113

http://http://www.puritanboard.com/f...-trains-47511/

I've heard of it, and no, it doesn't effect anyone around me. It's really not a Reformed Baptist theology, although it is found among some Calvinistic Baptists.

So you are making a distinction beteeen "Reformed Baptists" and other Calvinistic Baptist groups. I would like to explore that distinction further.

But, first, I would like to hear why you see the new covenant as totally new. What would be the implication is I saw that the new covenant was a renewed covenant. The covenant of grace is one, correct?

-----Added 6/8/2009 at 09:29:41 EST-----

Wouldn;t it be better to speak of two administrations of the one covenant of grace rather than two covenants (one with Moses and one with Christ)....

**Herald** · #7 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

Quote:

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter VII
Of God's Covenant with Man

I. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of Him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He has been pleased to express by way of covenant.[1]

II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works,[2] wherein life was promised to Adam; and in him to his posterity,[3] upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.[4]

III. Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,[5] commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved,[6] and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.[7]

IV. This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in scripture by the name of a testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed.[8]

V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel:[9] under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;[10] which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,[11] by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.[12]

VI. Under the Gospel, when Christ, the substance,[13] was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper:[14] which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,[15] to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;[16] and is called the New Testament.[17] There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.[18]

.

Quote:

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Chapter 7: Of God's Covenant

1. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience to him as their creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.
( Luke 17:10; Job 35:7,8 )
2. Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace, wherein he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved; and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.
( Genesis 2:17; Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:20, 21; Romans 8:3; Mark 16:15, 16; John 3:16; Ezekiel 36:26, 27; John 6:44, 45; Psalms 110:3 )
3. This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.
( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11;6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )

Like I alluded to earlier; the difference between being Baptist and Presbyterian. Both confessions deal with God's covenant, albeit differently.

Pergamum · #8 (**permalink**) 06-08-2009, 09:43 PM

So how do you believe in a different covenant (i.e. a brand new covenant) rather than a renewed covenant (i.., two administrations - Old Covenant, New Covenant - of the covenant of grace) if you hold to the 1689, which at first glance appears to favor a 1 covenant, 2 administrations position?