Thread: Need Romans 8 help

Heya everyone! This may be a little long - but I want to explain all the details so people can best help me.

At my dads house, me and my brothers, sister in law and step mother are having a Bible study. We are going through Romans right now. When we started the study me and my wife were the only Calvinists - now, one of my brothers and his wife are as well... but my other brother, my dad and my step mom are Calvary Chapel People (the NON-Calvinist type of CC!) So basically I have been biting my tongue for the most part as we have been going through Romans (which as you can imagine, is difficult) - but yesterday we started Romans 8. We were doing verses 1-17, and when we came to verses 7 & 8, I simply wanted to point out that unregenerate man is NOT ABLE to please God - and that repenting and trusting Christ is pleasing to God.

The reaction was odd.

My dad agreed... but started saying "I know where you are going - you want to say that it's not for everyone, but for some, and I don't agree. God sends the Holy Spirit to everyone - some respond & some don't. God knows who will respond and who wont (etc.)" And he was getting fairly upset. He then said "moving on..." and wanted to move on. I pointed out that I was not talking about Limited Atonement (I am not sure he is familiar with that term, but that IS what he was talking about), as I don't think Romans 8:7,8 deal so much with that part of the Doctrines of Grace.... and I did get my dad to agree that it was fair that when something like this comes up I should be allowed to present my understanding just like he can.

I was pleased that he agreed, as I know very well that Romans 8:28-30 and Romans 9 are looming ahead.

So I realized two things.
1. I want to have a very clear understanding of Romans 8:28-30, and need to be able to exegete it clearly and accurately.

2. My dads problem seems like it is with Limited Atonement... so I need to get educated better on this point.

It may be important to note that during this study, he is making extensive use of Warren Wiersbe's commentary. I am not that familar with it, but some of you may know about it.

My dad is a smart, fair and reasonable man - he LOVES God and the Bible. He is an extremely thorough, logical and linear thinker... and again, VERY smart. If I can present Calvinism accurately, clearly and completly, then I feel the odds are better that he will give it some serious thought.

So I would appreciate any and all good resources you all can point me to regarding Romans 8:28-30, Limited Atonement, and Romans 9. I have about 2 weeks before we finish off Romans 8, and then two more weeks before we get to Romans 9. So I have some time - but not an extreme amount of time.

Again, sorry this was so long. Thanks in advance for all your help.

Take care,
Rob

Who is the leader of the study?

You have a great opportunity. A couple of thoughts that might be of help here.

First point: Arminians will probably try to make hay of the word "foreknew" in verse 29, wanting to contrast it with "predestine." This is the "God-looks-down-the-corridor-of-time-and-foresees-faith-therefore-He-elects-them" nonsense (I wouldn't use that word). The verb does not usually mean "know beforehand without predetermination." In fact, the noun is often used in direct conjunction with a determined plan (see Acts 2:23). It is much more biblical, actually, to say that for God to "foreknow" someone is for God to "forelove" someone (to coin a word). Knowledge of a person is not merely facts about a person, but to know someone (cf. the biblical knowledge of husband and wife!). Never in Scripture is knowing someone equal to knowing about someone. It means personal, intimate knowledge of someone. This is really the linchpin argument when it comes to Arminianism's interpretation of Romans 8. Once this point is established, the rest follows naturally: the categories have no slippage from one to the next: those foreknown=those predestined=those called=those justified=those glorified.

Don't forget also that Romans 9 will help you out immensely here (go also to Ephesians 1). Don't try to argue him into Calvinism all through Romans 8. Just present the logical case for your argument, and let Romans 9 do the heavy lifting (Arminians NEVER interpret Romans 9 with any fidelity to the text whatsoever). The only thing they might try is to make Jacob and Esau into representative heads (can you say borrowed capital from Calvinism?). The answer to this is simple: the principle that governs the passage is verse 6b. not all are children of Abraham just because of blood. Paul's example is given from Abraham's own grandchildren. Therefore, Paul is not using them as an example of an entire people group, but rather as an example of the fact that not all children of Abraham according to the flesh are children of Abraham according to the promise.

Originally Posted by KMK

Who is the leader of the study?

Well, officially there is no leader. It is a family study, taking place at my dads house - and we all love and respect my dad very much... so unofficially my dad is the leader

Thanks for the help so far, and PLEASE keep it coming

Take care,
Rob

Rob,

I hate to say it, but in one sense, the damage has been done if you father can't see what Paul has been trying to point out in Romans 5-8.

This is the real problem with the bad commentary your Dad is using. It is quite obvious where Paul moves from Romans 5-8 to try to comfort believers and grant them absolute assurance in their salvation. It's the point of the response at the beginning of Romans 8 following the "groaning" of Romans 7 and is going to culminate in the believer's absolute assurance for salvation.

I'm not telling you to give up but that it is really sad that commentators obscure the flow of Paul's arguments. It is the most troubling and yet ironically evil thing that Christians would do everything they can to not be assured by the electing love of God. "No, no, don't want anything of God saving me to the uttermost!" Huh?

You see, these divine truths are revealed for our assurance and to bless us. I've found that when I approach the subject from the beauty and glory that God has saved His enemies to the uttermost that many will outright reject the garbage heap that is Arminianism that grants no assurance whatsoever.

FWIW, here is a complete seriies on Romans I taught a couple of years ago:

Romans | Central Baptist Church, Okinawa, Japan

I recommend you start from Romans 5 and listen (at least) through the end of Romans 8 as you'll be able to see more clearly the flow of the argument. You may end up succeeding in asking your father to lift up his head from the treeline a little bit to get the idea that he's actually in a forest.

Originally Posted by Supahrob

Originally Posted by KMK

Who is the leader of the study?

Well, officially there is no leader. It is a family study, taking place at my dads house - and we all love and respect my dad very much... so unofficially my dad is the leader

Thanks for the help so far, and PLEASE keep it coming

Take care,
Rob

I also recommend Rich's link. However, most important to you is you and your wife's faith. You are the spiritual leader of your family but, from the sound of it, you are not your father's spiritual leader. Beware of causing unneeded discord within your family by giving your father the honor that he deserves as your father. You may not agree with him on certain things, but if he is a godly man as you say, there is much you can learn from him. Ask lots of questions about what the text actually says. The passage is extremely clear and the more it is read out loud the better.

Also, since your father is CC, he might be interested that Chuck Smith actually agrees with you in your interpretation of Rom 8. In his book, "Calvary Chapel Distinctives" he writes about his experience reading Pink's "Sovereignty of God" and how he had to come to terms with predestination. Knowing this, your father might be willing to read Pink and then it will be all over. (I've never heard of anyone reading Pink with no effect.) I am sure you can find "Calvary Chapel Distinctives" at your local CC.

Originally Posted by KMK

Originally Posted by Supahrob

Originally Posted by KMK

Who is the leader of the study?

Well, officially there is no leader. It is a family study, taking place at my dads house - and we all love and respect my dad very much... so unofficially my dad is the leader

Thanks for the help so far, and PLEASE keep it coming

Take care,
Rob

I also recommend Rich's link. However, most important to you is you and your wife's faith. You are the spiritual leader of your family but, from the sound of it, you are not your father's spiritual leader. Beware of causing unneeded discord within your family by giving your father the honor that he deserves as your father. You may not agree with him on certain things, but if he is a godly man as you say, there is much you can learn from him. Ask lots of questions about what the text actually says. The passage is extremely clear and the more it is read out loud the better.

Also, since your father is CC, he might be interested that Chuck Smith actually agrees with you in your interpretation of Rom 8. In his book, "Calvary Chapel Distinctives" he writes about his experience reading Pink's "Sovereignty of God" and how he had to come to terms with predestination. Knowing this, your father might be willing to read Pink and then it will be all over. (I've never heard of anyone reading Pink with no effect.) I am sure you can find "Calvary Chapel Distinctives" at your local CC.

We keep a stack of Pink's "Sovereignty of God" at the church for just this reason. Rob, if you think that your father will read it, PM me your address and I will send you two copies. One for you to read and one for your dad.

Originally Posted by Supahrob

1. I want to have a very clear understanding of Romans 8:28-30, and need to be able to exegete it clearly and accurately.

Maybe you have some of these in your library or at least available:

Romans 8:28
Palmer, Benjamin Morgan, "God's Grace in Providence," Sermons, I, 177-190.

Sibbes, Richard, "The Privileges of the Faithful," in his Works, v.249-285.

Warfield, B.B., "All Things Working Together for Good," in Faith & Life, pp. 202-210.

Watson, Thomas, All Things for Good, pp. 1-127.

White, Thomas, "Of Effectual Calling," The Morning Exercises, v.269-283.

Romans 8:29
Spurgeon, C.H., "Portraits of Christ," #355, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit 7.57-64.

Romans 8:30
Boston, Thomas, "Of the Benefits of Effectual Calling," Commentary on the Shorter Catechism, i.576-580.

Originally Posted by Wayne

Originally Posted by Supahrob

1. I want to have a very clear understanding of Romans 8:28-30, and need to be able to exegete it clearly and accurately.

Maybe you have some of these in your library or at least available:

Romans 8:28
Palmer, Benjamin Morgan, "God's Grace in Providence," Sermons, I, 177-190.

Sibbes, Richard, "The Privileges of the Faithful," in his Works, v.249-285.

Warfield, B.B., "All Things Working Together for Good," in Faith & Life, pp. 202-210.

Watson, Thomas, All Things for Good, pp. 1-127.

White, Thomas, "Of Effectual Calling," The Morning Exercises, v.269-283.

Romans 8:29
Spurgeon, C.H., "Portraits of Christ," #355, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit 7.57-64.

Romans 8:30
Boston, Thomas, "Of the Benefits of Effectual Calling," Commentary on the Shorter Catechism, i.576-580.

Actually, with the exception of the Spurgeon sermon, I have none of these. My library is very small - and largely devoted to learning/studying Koine Greek. I will try to get some of these resources you mentioned asap!

Take care,
Rob

Rob:

With that Chuck Smith angle, it might be best to just focus on A.W. Pink's book, especially with that generous offer from Judson.

For the ones in my list, you can probably obtain some of these via Interlibrary Loan. Or search on www.worldcat.org and it will tell you where to find libraries in your area that have copies.

For instance, here are the libraries in California that hold B.B. Warfield's Faith and Life:

GRADUATE THEOL UNION LIBR
KINGS COL & SEMINARY, THE
MASTERS SEMINARY LIBR
SAN DIEGO CHRISTIAN COL
VANGUARD UNIV
WESTMINSTER SEMINARY CALIFORNIA
WILLIAM CAREY INT UNIV

Originally Posted by Wayne

Rob:

With that Chuck Smith angle, it might be best to just focus on A.W. Pink's book, especially with that generous offer from Judson.

For the ones in my list, you can probably obtain some of these via Interlibrary Loan. Or search on www.worldcat.org and it will tell you where to find libraries in your area that have copies.

For instance, here are the libraries in California that hold B.B. Warfield's Faith and Life:

GRADUATE THEOL UNION LIBR
KINGS COL & SEMINARY, THE
MASTERS SEMINARY LIBR
SAN DIEGO CHRISTIAN COL
VANGUARD UNIV
WESTMINSTER SEMINARY CALIFORNIA
WILLIAM CAREY INT UNIV

There is something wrong with your signature Wayne.

As for the Chuck Smith book, I am not recommending it as good commentary on Rom 8, but it has in my experience, been useful to gain audience with CCers. To them, if Papa Chuck respects Pink, then it is a green light for them to do the same.

Ken:

See post #8