My reformed views have been challenged

LeeJUk · #1 (**permalink**) 03-01-2009, 02:10 PM

So basically I listened to this sermon on sermonaudio.com and basically I decided to email the pastor and see like how in the light of the scripture I gave him he still denied Calvinism, (John 6:63-65), and basically he gave me a reply which really does seem to make sense and I have no answer to it.

So I was wondering if one of you nice folks could analyse his reply and reply to it from the bible. Though one thing I will say is that please don't make your argument based around "all doesn't mean all or world doesn't mean world" that won't convince me, I'm still undecided if I'm gonna go with that approach to the words "all" and "world" in the NT.

My Message:

Code:

How do you reconcile free will to choose Jesus with this verse when he was
speaking about people who do not believe?
 
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words
that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who
do not believe. ... And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can
come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:63-65)

His Reply:

Code:

Notice in verses 64 and 65 the interplay between God's foreknowledge and his
sovereignty--coupled with man's free will to believe or reject.  Follow the
logic from the verses:
 
1.   There are some of you that believe not (64)--Jesus placed the
responsibility of unbelief squarely on the unbeliever's shoulders.
 
2.   Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not.  That's
God's foreknowledge.  God knows who will believe and who will not.  He saves
those who believe, and damns those who don't.  Election is a matter of
foreknowledge.  (This is very irritating to Calvinists.)
 
3.   Verse 65 reconciles freewill, foreknowledge, and sovereignty.  God in
His sovereignty has chosen to save those who believe on Christ, a group of
people known to God as the "Elect."  Apart from the Father's working in
hearts, no man can come to Christ.  Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws
"all men" to Himself.  Without that drawing, there is no salvation.
Unbelievers either accept or reject the "drawing" of the Holy Spirit.  In
cases where there is no "drawing" men have not been exposed to Christ
"lifted up" (As in the case here, as the crucifixion had not yet taken
place.).  This would be the case where Christ has not been preached.
Without that drawing, no man can be saved.  Do you see it?  God must draw,
man must believe, God knows who's going to believe beforehand, and saves all
who believe.  (That's as close to reconciling these issues as I can come.)
Note, I'm not an arminian nor a Calvinist:  I'm in the middle.
 
I hope this is helpful!
 
Pastor Monte

I've read the Westminster confession, Lious Berkoff's Sys. Theo. and read scriptures that support reformed theology but there's always the possibility of being wrong and I don't want to go with Calvinism or Arminianism like without allowing my views to be challenged and changed.

Thanks a lot guys

.

Brad · #2 (**permalink**) 03-01-2009, 02:43 PM

So, would you allow yourself to be convinced that God would draw men to Himself knowing that they will reject Him? Please note that the word ἑλκύω, here translated draw, is the same word used in John 18 where Peter drew a sword, and in John 21 where the disciples were having a hard time drawing the burgeoning net. This is not wooing, this is more akin to dragging.

So only those whom God drags, come, and all those that come are accepted. They come because they are dragged, not because they choose to come.

**py3ak** · #3 (**permalink**) 03-01-2009, 03:02 PM

Notice v.37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

All those given by the Father will come. Now notice vv.44,45
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
No one can come unless the Father draws him. This is proved by the prophetic statement (from Isaiah) that they will all be taught of God (in its Isaianic context, it is all thy children). And everyone who has heard and learned of the Father (in other words, those who have been taught by the Father) come to Christ.
So no man can come without being taught; but every taught one comes. That means that not every man is taught, because not every man comes.
Now notice vv. 64,65
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jesus knew who would not believe: and because He knew that some would not believe He also said that no one can come to Him unless the Father grants that coming to them.

Now in addition to that the pastor's reply is inadequate theologically. No cause can be assigned to God's will, but his scheme makes God's will depend on man. God foresees that something will happen (how can it happen if He hasn't decreed it?) and frames his response accordingly: so there is a cause for His will, according to that line of argumentation. So then it would no longer be true to say that it is not of him that runneth nor of him that willeth, but of God that sheweth mercy: no, according to this explanation, it is not of God that shower mercy, but of man who accepts.

LeeJUk · #4 (**permalink**) 03-01-2009, 03:16 PM

yep you've both destroyed his argument especially with the greek, nice one

.

Thanks to both of ya.

JonathanHunt · #5 (**permalink**) 03-01-2009, 07:18 PM

I hope you pass these comments back to him. Must pump more solid stuff onto sermonaudio. There is some bad stuff on there. Have you seen Jonathan Modene's rants against calvinism? Mannnn that is bad stuff.