I understand what the reformation was getting away from and what it was establishing. Growing up in MN, Lutheranism is the church here, especially the e-LCA (evangelical liberal church in America). Are the thoughts of Luther part of the entirety of the reformed thought? I see a lot of threads regarding the works of Owen, Bunyan, Watson and others but little regarding Luther.

I know this is PuritanBoard and the majority of ideas are going to be centered around Puritanism, which Luther was not. So, I guess my question - how do you view Luther and his works in Reformed Theology?

What do you think of Luther's Catechism, Book of Concord?

Thank you and thanks for the warm welcome to the board.

I would be surprised if not everyone on this board thought of Luther as a hero and were grateful to God for what he did. That having been said, as the reformation progressed a rift began to develop between the Protestants and distinctive "Lutheran" and "Reformed" communities began to emerge. One of the causes of this (though by no means the only one) was the difference of perspective on the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. Luther insisted on the physical presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper and the Reformed insisted on the spiritual presence (not physical). Luther claimed that the reformed were "of a different spirit". As time went on, other political and theological differences widened the rift. There is a book (a rather long one) called "The Churches of Christ Purely Reformed" that traces the differences between the Lutherans and the Reformed historically, politically and culturally as well as theologically (among other things). It was a fascinating read. The modern ELCA bears no resemblance to historic Lutheranism.

__________________
Rev. Adam King
Minister in the RPCNA
Pastor-Elect awaiting installation at Trinity Reformed Church
Wichita, KS

Yes, Mr Luther is a very important part of the Reformation (and of "Reformed Theology).

He is well respected in Reformed Theology for many reasons, including his clear articulation of what we now call "the five points of Calvinism," and especially the doctrine of election (predestination) in his book, Bondage of the Will.

The Reformation officially is usually dated from his posting of the 95 Thesis on the door of the Church at Wittenburg, Germany.

Generally, we would look at Mr Luther's Reforms as "moderate reform" as opposed to Mr Calvin's "thoroughgoing reform." Both types were courageous and difficult but Mr Calvin evidenced an effort more of a total comprehensive reform effort that included, for example, church government. There were also significant differences over the Lord's Supper.

There are many doctrines that Mr Luther and Mr Calvin (and all Reformers) tried to Reform the Church to... they did not intend to start a new religion, only to restore Christianity to the religion of the Apostles (Apostolic Christianity). The two largest doctrines which Mr Luther was a champion of are...

justification by faith alone (sola fide)
authority of Scripture (sola scriptura)

Granted now many Protestant churches have fallen away from these truths and, in this generation, it is more difficult to see what they were "protesting." Traces of it are still there though, if you look.

Mr Luther championed these key doctrines, risked his life doing so, and we owe him a debt of gratitude and thanks to our God for raising up such as a one as he.

As Rev. King says modern Lutheranism (even to a large degree the LCMS and WELS branches) bears little resemblance to Luther's Lutheranism. Much like most of the Presbyterian world bears little resemblance to the Presbyterianism of the Puritans and the Westminster Divines.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA,
Fairmount ARP Church
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
"The benefit of deliverance becomes the more precious in the same proportion in which we are brought to apprehend the magnitude of the evil from which we have been rescued"
-- Zacharias Ursinus, Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism

I think it is also important to note that Luther wasn't responsible for much of what is "Lutheranism". [Edit: Curses, Benjamin beat me to it. ]

Luther's The Bondage of the Will is still my favorite book, and has been for around 20 years.

__________________
Michael Mason (a.k.a. Dwimble)
Fort Worth PCA
Fort Worth, Texas
www.dwimble.com

Thanks for those couple of responses. Very helpful- especially about the eucharist being held by Luther in one regard versus the reformed thought thereof. I agree that, especially the ELCA where a friend of mine is a pastor, is far from orthodoxy and very far from Luther's vigor and rigor towards proper theology. My friend is one year into his first calling and believe me does not appreciate the ELCA; really never has but did finish his M.Div.

Any thoughts on Luther's catechism?

Luther is a hero for the firm stace he took in the face of the apostating Roman church.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Of course nowadays Luther would be seen as "sectarian" and a "troublemaker". I am positive he would be charged with nitpicking and being a pain in the rear.

As the first of the Reformers, Luther is REFORMATIONAL; Calvin is REFORMED by the way that term developed.

Luther's predestinarian arguments in The Bondage of the Will were changed at the hands of Lutheranism's first systematician, Luther's protege Melanchthon. Some historians speculate that had Luther lived another fifteen years, he would have broken with his favorite. However, judging by how Luther handled his substantial differences with Melanchthon's Loci (namely by soft peddling his differences from his young friend), I'm not convinced that Luther had it in him to break with Melanchthon.

In the broadest sense, one could argue that the Lutherans, Reformed, and Anabaptists are ALL Reformational insofar as they all arose during that period and in the same general place. However, Calvinists would not count Anabaptists as like them in almost any way and differentiate themselves from Lutherans on TULIP issues as well as sacramentology.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

That's what any of us should hope for, in the right contexts that is.

Quite True (By the way I meant that is how he would be seen by the Church itself)...

I know, I just had to interject.

The "modern" ELCA? This particular society has only been around since '87 (or '88).

BTW, the ELCA not only bears no resemblance to historic Lutheranism ... it bears no resemblance to biblical Christianity.

__________________
Kevin Guillory
Pastor
Redeemer Christian Congregation
Baltimore, MD

I don't interpret Scripture. Scripture
interprets itself. And in the process ...
Scripture interprets me!

Fair enough. I agree.

I like that - good insight. It seems as if Calvin's works and the works of the Puritans really kick one in the soul whereas Luther really kicks one in the behind. Luther Seminary is not very far from where I live and it saddens me that the institution that houses an original death mask of Martin Luther is so far departed from his teachings and so far from the reformed and orthodox theology!

If you want a good example of Reformational Christianity on display with both confessional Reformed and Lutheran representatives, check out the White Horse Inn with 3 Reformed guys and 1 crazy Lutheran (an old prof for my wife and me). They are all Reformational and Confessional, but only three are Reformed.

The ELCA doesnt teach Inerrancy, their view tends to be neo-orthodoxy, Truth is subjective and NOT objective. from the ELCA website,

The Bible’s authority rests in God
ELCA Lutherans confidently proclaim with all Christians that the authority of the Bible rests in God. We believe that God inspired the Bible’s many writers, editors and compilers. As they heard God speaking and discerned God’s activity in events around them in their own times and places, the Bible’s content took shape. Among other things, the literature they produced includes history, legal code, parables, letters of instruction, persuasion and encouragement, tales of heroism, love poetry and hymns of praise. The varying types and styles of literature found here all testify to faith in a God who acts by personally engaging men and women in human history.

At the same time, we also find in the Bible human emotion, testimony, opinion, cultural limitation and bias. ELCA Lutherans recognize that human testimony and writing are related to and often limited by culture, customs and world view. Today we know that the earth is not flat and that rabbits do not chew their cud (Leviticus 11:6 ). These are examples of time-bound cultural understandings or practices. Christians do not follow biblically prescribed dietary laws such as eliminating pork from one’s diet (Leviticus 11:7) because the new covenant we have with God has replaced the Old Testament covenant God had with his people. Because Biblical writers, editors and compilers were limited by their times and world views, even as we are, the Bible contains material wedded to those times and places. It also means that writers sometimes provide differing and even contradictory views of God’s word, ways and will.

Listening to the living Jesus in the context of the church, we therefore have the task of deciding among these. Having done this listening, we sometimes conclude either that the writer’s culture or personal experience (e.g., subordination of women or keeping of slaves) seems to have prompted his missing what God was saying or doing, or that God now is saying or doing something new.The Bible’s authority is interpreted through Jesus
By no means does that human presence in sacred Scripture detract from the Bible’s testimony to God. Rather, this human testimony provides layers of faith and insight by those who contributed to the canon. The Bible’s reliability lies not in reading it as science or proscription, but as humankind’s chief witness to God, reflecting on faith as it is to be lived. Again, ELCA Lutherans judge all Scripture through the window of God’s chief act — that of entering human flesh in Jesus of Nazareth — and they interpret Scripture by listening to the living Jesus in the context of the Church. Because Jesus’ person, life and witness become the lens through which we read and interpret all Scripture, we can judge slavery as "not of Jesus," yet understand the customs of the time and read Paul’s inspiring letter to Philemon, master of the slave Onesimus, as testimony to faith.

On several occasions, Martin Luther suggested that not all books of the Bible have the same value for faith formation. Similarly, as in all of life, ELCA Lutherans ask, "Is what we find here consistent with God’s revelation in Jesus?" This is a central question/prescription that provides guidance for acting as moral beings and for calling humankind to justice; it also becomes the authority for our reading Scripture, for it is the Jesus of Scripture, the living Word, who reveals God and judges Scripture, just as he is the judge for all else in life. Therefore, it is a question that ELCA Lutherans find best answered within the life of the Church in community, for this risen Jesus is Lord of the Church.

Biblical interpretation as scholarly endeavor
ELCA Lutherans understand that the Bible contains various kinds of testimony to God’s purpose for humanity. Included in its literary forms are history, story, parable, legal codes, hymns, inspirational and instructive letters, and personal faith testimony.

Some ancient Biblical content precedes the written word and was passed orally from generation to generation. Thereafter, early manuscripts were written fully or in part in a number of languages, principally Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. In order to duplicate and disseminate these manuscripts before the invention of the printing press texts were hand copied. While they are remarkable in their agreement and accuracy, sometimes - though mostly in minor matters — because of a copyist’s writing, mistakes or incorporation of margin notes, these texts do not agree among themselves.

Manuscript variances raise questions among scholars concerning the original text’s intent or meaning. For instance, did God use ravens or Arabs to feed Elijah in the wilderness (1 Kings 17:6)? The two words share the same Hebrew characters, and since the passage predates the use of vowels in the Hebrew language, manuscript translations vary according to which vowels were assigned later by the scribe-copyists.

It may be helpful here to distinguish studying Biblical texts from mining the Bible for devotional material. ELCA Lutherans honor and employ both approaches in faith formation. The distinctions are not clear cut, for elements of each are found in both approaches. Yet some Biblical material particularly lends itself to meditation or reflection on the will of God for faithful living (e.g. Hebrews 11 on examples of faith).

The Bible - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

__________________
Scott Shahan
Member of First Evangelical Free Church, EFCA
firstfreesf.org
Sioux Falls, SD

Better is the sin which humbles me, than that duty which makes me proud.
Thomas Watson

Peter,

Do you ever go and hear Dr.Piper preach? I see that you are in St. Louis Park, I used to live in Bloomington, and would attend Bethlehem Baptist Church. Bethlehem Baptist Church : Homepage I thought this talk that Piper did on luther was good. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...ife_and_Labor/

I have been to Bethlehem many times - it is about five minutes from my house. Great church - first went there in 1996. Okay, so I am a bit Piper obsessed because I have ALL of his downloadable speakings which has taken up a LOT of disk space. (took a while). I listen his sermons in the car on my way to school.

I will have to re-listen to that biographic - I think it is in that series The Swans Are Not Silent.

You live in SoDak. I have cousins in Tea. They are catholic though.

Peter when I come up to Minneapolis we should go get coffee sometime, I will be up there sometime in Sept, I am going to go to Valley fair.

Agreed.