Thread: Legalism vs following the Lord

Legalism = self-righteousness. In other words, any time we think we have achieved righteousness by an act of our own doing, we are legalistic.

Jesus taught us over and over again about obedience from the heart. Do we obey because we love God and WANT to do right? Or do we obey because we have to? I think any time we do because it's our duty, we are being self-righteous. That means we sin every day, because none of us will do everything out of pure motive. It also means we will repenting every day.

That is why Jesus told us to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbors as ourselves. It's why Paul told us to have the mind of Christ. Our only escape from legalism/self-righteousness is the righteousness of Christ, and the only way that we can live without being legalistic is to obey out of love for God.

So the cure? Pursue love of God. Ask God to give us the mind of Christ. Ask God to teach us to think and love the way He does. When that transformation begins to take place, we will find ourselves WANTING to do right, and we wont' be judging what our neighbor is doing. It is amazing what God does to our hearts when we start really loving Him and seeing Him for Who He is.

-----Added 2/5/2009 at 12:22:25 EST-----

Originally Posted by Wannabee

I realized something today as I pondered this, and Kevin's comment underscores what I was thinking. From the perspective of almost every Sabbatarian I have ever met, I observe the Sabbath. I set it aside for worship, fellowship, family and other activities that help me focus on Christ. As I noted before, this begins Monday and culminates on Sunday. But from Saturday night on my focus is purposely on Sunday's worship. I don't watch football (this year's Super Bowl was an exception). Sometimes, in our fellowship, we'll play a game of ball, or horseshoes, darts or even cards. Sometimes there is something that just needs attention (car, repair around house, ox in ditch, etc.). But most of the time we simply relish in the blessings God has provided and focus on Him throughout the day. This is not because I perceive anything compelling me to in Scripture, but because I am able to do so as a gift from God. I want to. So, any discussions regarding "loopholes" really are irrelevant. I would give up little to nothing to observe Sunday as the Sabbath. Furthermore, as a pastor, it would be much more convenient for me to be convinced of the Sabbath position because I could "enforce" such a belief in our church in the pursuit of greater faithfulness and holiness; something that is regularly on the mind of a shepherd. There is a very real sense in which I wish the Sabbath was on Sunday because I tire of seeing people so apathetic toward God.

For some reason, my 'thanks' button won't work. But WOW, you said what I was thinking. Thanks

I never met a woman yet who had babies and could be legalistic about the sabbath. If they made guys nurse a baby for hours daily including twice a night the first few months, and change diapers all day, and take care of the two other preschoolers who need lunch and dinner and a bath.....you'd have a different view about what it means to not work on the sabbath. It sure does NOT mean to stop doing most of the same duties and work you do all week long for a Mom.

No shopping, maybe no cleaning, and attending the gathering....yes. But no work with babies? Ha. You have to be kidding. Having babies cured me of any notion that the sabbath means to stop working as we understand working in the daily job sense. Sometimes hub would take them Sunday late afternoon and I'd go out alone in the freezing winter and walk around the mall for a couple miles just to get a peaceful walk alone. Thank you God for the mall on Sunday!! The people I know who thought I was sinful never had four babies in a row, I can tell you that!

Originally Posted by mangum

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

I have to confess that I am confused by the (common) argument that "Christ is my Sabbath."

However, I am not familiar with any "argument" for this position--just the mantra over and over again. I've been asking what does "Christ is my Sabbath" mean around this board for years to no avail. Since I'm at it I'll try again:

What does "Christ is my Sabbath" mean? I don't need to hear "I rest in Christ" because I'll ask you what that means too. I would very much like to hear the doctrine spelled out. Maybe a book recommendation?

What does it mean for Christ to be my Sabbath rest? Well, you really have to define Sabbath. Heb 3-4 defines it as salvation and salvation is defined as justification, sanctification, and glorification. Christ is my Sabbath rest because His passive obedience reconciled God to me and He has imputed His active obedience onto me, thus I rest in His work and not my own filthy works. Just as assuredly as He rested from His work of planning, implementing, and carrying out the salvific process, I am to rest from my own filthy work and rest in Christ. Christ states to us,

25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

I'm to do this at all times not just once a week. I'm not to neglect the gathering of the brethren however many times that may be.

4And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Yes, Christ is our sabbath rest. He is marvelously our Redeemer, Savior, Lord, Prophet, Priest, King and many, many other things.

We rest in Him for salvation alone, as Hebrews 3-4 says.

But this is not the same thing as the fourth commandment. The "rest" there is from the ordinary pursuit of work and entertaining ourselves that are lawful, even required on the other days (in fact part of the fourth commandment is to labor the rest of the time). The resting involves thought, word and deed so that one prioritizes worship of God- corporate, family and personal, and ceases from the ordinary routines of life.

The most difficult part is not thinking or talking about for example, our work. If our minds and words are not directed toward worship, we are not really directed toward worship at all, merely rationalizing the fact we do not want to. In our old nature, we resent "giving over" time to our Creator because we really think it is ours. It is for our own use 24/7 and we resent God's imposition. We think something like,

"God has no right to deny my thoughts and words about making my living or to prevent me from doing work at home to catch up. God has no right to tell me not to play football and frisbee today. Further, God has no right to require my worship in thought word and deed for an entire day."
(and by implication, anyone who says God has that right, is being "legalistic."

We all struggle with this and God uses this to reveal both our own sin in not really wanting to obey Him or have Him own us and His marvelous grace. He provides ability to keep it when we think we cannot. He gives us faith to believe we can and that His promises of blessing for obedience are indeed true.

The really good news is that God gives us plenty of time to work, to recreate and prevents us from being consumed by it with a regular check in the fourth commandment. God is generous in providing rest from the dreary routines of life and as we grow, we can actually look forward to spending focused time with Him. Perhaps only a few come to really experience this, but the sabbath is truly a delight- not because we get to seek self-gratification but because we get a taste of the liberation from it. This comes only from Christ, by His grace not by the rules by which we get to it. Yet, we must obey to get it.

In addition, God is generous and gives us good-faith exceptions for necessity and mercy. They are (and were from the beginning) intended to not place an undue burden upon us or our conscience.

"Legalism" really has nothing to do with this. The commandment has practical implications that regularly affect our life pattern. It means we ought not work, or talk about work or find ourselves meditating on our work. This is very difficult, and so when someone starts talking about the Super Bowl Monday morning (many of us have done this), it's not legalism to recall, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy..."

Originally Posted by Scott1

Yes, Christ is our sabbath rest. He is marvelously our Redeemer, Savior, Lord, Prophet, Priest, King and many, many other things.

We rest in Him for salvation alone, as Hebrews 3-4 says.

But this is not the same thing as the fourth commandment. The "rest" there is from the ordinary pursuit of work and entertaining ourselves that are lawful, even required on the other days (in fact part of the fourth commandment is to labor the rest of the time). The resting involves thought, word and deed so that one prioritizes worship of God- corporate, family and personal, and ceases from the ordinary routines of life.

The most difficult part is not thinking or talking about for example, our work. If our minds and words are not directed toward worship, we are not really directed toward worship at all, merely rationalizing the fact we do not want to. In our old nature, we resent "giving over" time to our Creator because we really think it is ours. It is for our own use 24/7 and we resent God's imposition. We think something like,

"God has no right to deny my thoughts and words about making my living or to prevent me from doing work at home to catch up. God has no right to tell me not to play football and frisbee today. Further, God has no right to require my worship in thought word and deed for an entire day."

We all struggle with this and God uses this to reveal both our own sin in not really wanting to obey Him or have Him own us and His marvelous grace. He provides ability to keep it when we think we cannot. He gives us faith to believe we can and that His promises of blessing for obedience are indeed true.

"Legalism" really has nothing to do with this. The commandment has practical implications that regularly affect our life pattern. It means we ought not work, or talk about work or find ourselves meditating on our work. This is very difficult, and so when someone starts talking about the Super Bowl Monday morning (many of us have done this), it's not legalism to recall, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy..."

I agree, Scott, but my concern with legalism and the Sabbath has more to do with the second part of Josh's definition: requiring more of people than God requires. I have no problem with people being very diligent in their observance of the Lord's Day. Going back to Rich's point, there's nothing wrong with having a very high standard for keeping the Law. But just because one person refrains from a certain activity doesn't mean it's a sin for everyone else not to refrain from the same activity.

For example, my fellowship group from church meets every so often for a picnic, ball-throwing, etc. in Central Park after church. My conscience isn't the least bit bothered by this, as I consider fellowship and relaxation with fellow believers well within what is lawful according to the 4th Commandment. Yet for some Christians this is sinful and an unlawful recreation on the Lord's Day. That's perfectly fine and admirable, but I don't think they can say I'm sinning by having a picnic any more than I can compel them to go against their conscience and join us. To make a blanket statement about specific activities other than what is in the 4th Commandment/Confessions is legalism.

God's standard is to refrain from unnecessary/unmerciful work and recreations that detract from resting in and worshiping Him. Beyond that I think most attempts to develop universal "dos" and "don'ts" leads to legalism because it holds people to a human standard rather than God's standard...

ColdSilverMoon

For example, my fellowship group from church meets every so often for a picnic, ball-throwing, etc. in Central Park after church. My conscience isn't the least bit bothered by this, as I consider fellowship and relaxation with fellow believers well within what is lawful according to the 4th Commandment. Yet for some Christians this is sinful and an unlawful recreation on the Lord's Day. That's perfectly fine and admirable, but I don't think they can say I'm sinning by having a picnic any more than I can compel them to go against their conscience and join us. To make a blanket statement about specific activities other than what is in the 4th Commandment/Confessions is legalism.

It is difficult in some cases to know what activities are or are not ordinarily to abstained from on the Lord's Day. But, that doesn't mean we do not try.

Our standards are not ambiguous- they summarize the doctrine of Scripture to say we ought ordinarily to abstain from work and recreation in thought, word, and deed in order that we might focus on worship of God all the Sabbath Day. They set an impossibly high standard (without God's grace), but they are not really ambiguous. They are not relative. God's commandments are objective, they are not determined by human relativism. We must ask for faith to meet them.

For example, I cannot under ordinary circumstances jog on the Lord's Day without offending my conscience knowing that it is common recreation and that my mindset is not worship (i.e. regulative principle), despite the fact that I find it enjoyable and may even think somewhat about God while doing it. Nothing wrong with jogging, but not in place of worship on the Lord's Day or because I happen to enjoy it. Now, also showing the mercy God has given in us, one time I did because I was going through a rough time and could not sleep and for health reasons needed to exercise to relax. My conscience said that was truly a mercy exception, and I was thankful to God for it. But that is not the ordinary case and would not make the exception as the rule.

It's hard to keep this commandment and all its implications. Like many others, we must learn somewhat to deny ourselves and be willing to suffer to obey. This is not something that comes naturally to us fallen human beings... and doing it is not "legalism."

I commend you for your thoughts on this... a lot of people are thinking this through. It's a regular topic here on Puritan Board- and for good reason. Few things will effect the way you live more than rightly apprehending the fourth commandment.

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

My conscience isn't the least bit bothered by this, as I consider fellowship and relaxation with fellow believers well within what is lawful according to the 4th Commandment. Yet for some Christians this is sinful and an unlawful recreation on the Lord's Day. That's perfectly fine and admirable, but I don't think they can say I'm sinning by having a picnic any more than I can compel them to go against their conscience and join us. To make a blanket statement about specific activities other than what is in the 4th Commandment/Confessions is legalism.

I want to try to tread carefully here and make sure I make a point that is sort of incidental (somewhat) to what the 4th Commandment forbids/requires.

I'm not picking on you but this paragraph is particularly useful to highlight something that is a common mistake we're all prone to make: just because our conscience is not stung by something does not mean that it pleases the Lord.

I point that out because one of the things that is core to Reformed (Biblical) thinking is our need to have our consciences trained by the Word of God.

Now, I will grant that some present the positive and negative aspects of some of the Commandments of God as a mere list of Do's/Dont's but the tenor in the WLC is that the Law reveals things about God's nature (backed up by Proverbial wisdom) that is meant to cause us to reflect on what is/isn't God glorifying. The Word makes us wise unto salvation. Salvation is a present possession of believers as well as the perfection that God produces in us through Word and Spirit.

I'm not saying that all mature Christians who meditate upon the Law of God come to the same conclusions but we ought to ensure that we never readily assume that we can simply let our conscience be our guide as to the nature of God's revelation. Remember, that we're Saints and sinners and we begin and end with a dependence upon God to reveal how things really are rather than how we conceive them to be in the instability of our warring members.

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

My conscience isn't the least bit bothered by this, as I consider fellowship and relaxation with fellow believers well within what is lawful according to the 4th Commandment. Yet for some Christians this is sinful and an unlawful recreation on the Lord's Day. That's perfectly fine and admirable, but I don't think they can say I'm sinning by having a picnic any more than I can compel them to go against their conscience and join us. To make a blanket statement about specific activities other than what is in the 4th Commandment/Confessions is legalism.

I want to try to tread carefully here and make sure I make a point that is sort of incidental (somewhat) to what the 4th Commandment forbids/requires.

I'm not picking on you but this paragraph is particularly useful to highlight something that is a common mistake we're all prone to make: just because our conscience is not stung by something does not mean that it pleases the Lord.

I point that out because one of the things that is core to Reformed (Biblical) thinking is our need to have our consciences trained by the Word of God.

Now, I will grant that some present the positive and negative aspects of some of the Commandments of God as a mere list of Do's/Dont's but the tenor in the WLC is that the Law reveals things about God's nature (backed up by Proverbial wisdom) that is meant to cause us to reflect on what is/isn't God glorifying. The Word makes us wise unto salvation. Salvation is a present possession of believers as well as the perfection that God produces in us through Word and Spirit.

I'm not saying that all mature Christians who meditate upon the Law of God come to the same conclusions but we ought to ensure that we never readily assume that we can simply let our conscience be our guide as to the nature of God's revelation. Remember, that we're Saints and sinners and we begin and end with a dependence upon God to reveal how things really are rather than how we conceive them to be in the instability of our warring members.

I agree with you, Rich. Simply because our conscience isn't stung doesn't mean our actions are right - I've found this out the hard way on many issues. Our conscience has to be developed and guided by the Word, and not based on our fleshly instincts and intuitions. The 4th Commandment is something I think and pray about all the time, and ask God to reveal error in my thinking and practice - I did so today in fact as I read and meditated on Psalm 119. I believe such practice is crucial to being led by God's Word in order to glorify Him and obey Him fully.

Originally Posted by Scott1

It is difficult in some cases to know what activities are or are not ordinarily to abstained from on the Lord's Day. But, that doesn't mean we do not try.

Our standards are not ambiguous- they summarize the doctrine of Scripture to say we ought ordinarily to abstain from work and recreation in thought, word, and deed in order that we might focus on worship of God all the Sabbath Day. They set an impossibly high standard (without God's grace), but they are not really ambiguous. They are not relative. God's commandments are objective, they are not determined by human relativism. We must ask for faith to meet them.

For example, I cannot under ordinary circumstances jog on the Lord's Day without offending my conscience knowing that it is common recreation and that my mindset is not worship (i.e. regulative principle), despite the fact that I find it enjoyable and may even think somewhat about God while doing it. Nothing wrong with jogging, but not in place of worship on the Lord's Day or because I happen to enjoy it. Now, also showing the mercy God has given in us, one time I did because I was going through a rough time and could not sleep and for health reasons needed to exercise to relax. My conscience said that was truly a mercy exception, and I was thankful to God for it. But that is not the ordinary case and would not make the exception as the rule.

It's hard to keep this commandment and all its implications. Like many others, we must learn somewhat to deny ourselves and be willing to suffer to obey. This is not something that comes naturally to us fallen human beings... and doing it is not "legalism."

I commend you for your thoughts on this... a lot of people are thinking this through. It's a regular topic here on Puritan Board- and for good reason. Few things will effect the way you live more than rightly apprehending the fourth commandment.

Thanks for your interaction on this, Scott. I really value your wisdom and insight. I'm not saying that God's Commandments are subjective at all - if it seemed that way from my most I want to make clear that I do not believe God's Word is in any way "relative." My point is that within bounds of the 4th Commandment there can be sincere differences of opinion as to its particulars. For what it's worth, I agree with you about routine exercise - I don't go to the gym on Sunday because I consider it part of a daily routine that should not be done on the Lord's Day. My point about the picnic is to show that while I believe fellowship with believers outside worship is appropriate on the Lord's Day, others do not, and consider it unlawful recreation. So who's right and who's wrong? I don't think we can say from Scripture that one way or another is definitely sinful.

Semper Fidelis

Salvation is a present possession of believers as well as the perfection that God produces in us through Word and Spirit.

Wow! That is a succinct statement of the two aspects of salvation we so often do not consider when we use that term.

Originally Posted by sjonee

What does it mean for Christ to be my Sabbath rest? Well, you really have to define Sabbath. Heb 3-4 defines it as salvation and salvation is defined as justification, sanctification, and glorification. Christ is my Sabbath rest because His passive obedience reconciled God to me and He has imputed His active obedience onto me, thus I rest in His work and not my own filthy works. Just as assuredly as He rested from His work of planning, implementing, and carrying out the salvific process, I am to rest from my own filthy work and rest in Christ. Christ states to us,

25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

I'm to do this at all times not just once a week. I'm not to neglect the gathering of the brethren however many times that may be.

4And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Yes, we have Christ's righteousness but we are not anti-nomians we do believe that we are to keep God's law. Yes, his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Why?? It is still a yoke and a burden. It is easy and light because now that we are changed into his likeness and conformed to the image of his son, we delight in his law. We desire, even if we fail often, we desire to keep it because it is holy, righteous, good. We love his law. His law is written in your heart. Thus your heart should draw you to the law and law keeping. A faith without works is dead. Faith is not the result of the fruit of obedience it is the cause of it. Whatever is not done in faith is sin. Rom. 14:23

Spurgeon said of the passage in Psalms 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. "Put the law into the heart, and the whole man is right. This is where the law should be; for then it lies, like the tables of stone in the ark, in the place appointed for it. In the head it puzzles, on the back it burdens, in the heart it upholds."

We are not to allow anyone to subject us to THAT yoke and slavery, meaning the one that is not of faith but of works, but we are to take his yoke upon us, which is by faith and flows from faith.

God's law tells us to SANCTIFY and SET APART the Lord's day/sabbath. Many of you keep saying "we do that all week, we pray without ceasing" etc. What God is commanding is that that day be DIFFERENT than the others. It is set apart and holy. We should desire to do this, because the law of God is written on our hearts and we delight in it.

Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Psalm 1
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalm 40:8
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Psalm 119:70
Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.

Psalm 119:92
Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

Psalm 119:77
Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

Psalm 119:174
I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

ColdSilverMoon

My point about the picnic is to show that while I believe fellowship with believers outside worship is appropriate on the Lord's Day, others do not, and consider it unlawful recreation. So who's right and who's wrong? I don't think we can say from Scripture that one way or another is definitely sinful.

Well, the question might be framed- Does Scripture have anything to say about:

1) How the Sabbath Day/Lord's Day is to be kept holy, that is set apart?
2) What constitutes worship?

I would say it clearly does, general principles with specific applications (and generously, exceptions for necessity and mercy). So do our Standards, summarizing the doctrine of Scripture.

This is very helpful because we are way beyond a superficial discussion that is sometimes had based on "everything is fulfilled in Christ" and therefore there is no application of the fourth commandment, nor the regulative principle. And beyond the moral relativism that so often informs discussions about what God requires of us. (I realize you are not, and have not ever, been saying that).

The flip side of this is how incredibly marvelous it is when one is able, at least a little, to truly enter in to "sabbath rest" on the Lord's Day, and call it a delight. It is such a marvelous provision of rest from the cares and worries that ordinarily consume our attention, even those that come from the labor of entertaining ourselves! It is the exact opposite from the pretense and burden that "legalism" is based on.

It something the Puritans apparently obtained a high degree of understanding of- and our Standards, and all the historic Confessions reflect that.

I appreciate your perspective on this Scott. Thank you for your thoughts.

Originally Posted by Augusta

Originally Posted by sjonee

What does it mean for Christ to be my Sabbath rest? Well, you really have to define Sabbath. Heb 3-4 defines it as salvation and salvation is defined as justification, sanctification, and glorification. Christ is my Sabbath rest because His passive obedience reconciled God to me and He has imputed His active obedience onto me, thus I rest in His work and not my own filthy works. Just as assuredly as He rested from His work of planning, implementing, and carrying out the salvific process, I am to rest from my own filthy work and rest in Christ. Christ states to us,

25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

I'm to do this at all times not just once a week. I'm not to neglect the gathering of the brethren however many times that may be.

4And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Yes, we have Christ's righteousness but we are not anti-nomians we do believe that we are to keep God's law. Yes, his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Why?? It is still a yoke and a burden. It is easy and light because now that we are changed into his likeness and conformed to the image of his son, we delight in his law. We desire, even if we fail often, we desire to keep it because it is holy, righteous, good. We love his law. His law is written in your heart. Thus your heart should draw you to the law and law keeping. A faith without works is dead. Faith is not the result of the fruit of obedience it is the cause of it. Whatever is not done in faith is sin. Rom. 14:23

Spurgeon said of the passage in Psalms 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. "Put the law into the heart, and the whole man is right. This is where the law should be; for then it lies, like the tables of stone in the ark, in the place appointed for it. In the head it puzzles, on the back it burdens, in the heart it upholds."

We are not to allow anyone to subject us to THAT yoke and slavery, meaning the one that is not of faith but of works, but we are to take his yoke upon us, which is by faith and flows from faith.

God's law tells us to SANCTIFY and SET APART the Lord's day/sabbath. Many of you keep saying "we do that all week, we pray without ceasing" etc. What God is commanding is that that day be DIFFERENT than the others. It is set apart and holy. We should desire to do this, because the law of God is written on our hearts and we delight in it.

I don't believe that I'm setting the Law aside just because I'm setting the Jewish Sabbath aside. As Col 2:16 says, it was a shadow of the Substance to come. I know that many in the reformed circle believe that the "Sabbath" mentioned in Col 2:16 is speaking of ceremonial Sabbaths, but there are others from the reformed circle like Joseph Pipa who believe that verse is a command to leave behind the Jewish Sabbath and then he uses other verses to establish a Christian Sabbath. Point being, no one within the reformed circle agrees on the interpretation of Col 2:16. I take this verse along with many other verses in the NT and to make my conclusions, on which I'm still working. His yoke is easy and His burden is light only because He is the one doing the work in us, therefore it isn't burdensome nor is it a yoke of hardship. He does the justification, sanctification, and glorification. We love His law only because of the work He has done within us. Actually, faith's only job is to receive. Faith doesn't produce anything. It is what I receive from Christ through faith that produces good fruit. We must look to the object of our faith, which is Christ Jesus. He is the one who produces good fruit in you through faith. Faith would be useless if we didn't have Someone who is the object of our faith. Setting aside one day out of the week is a type and shadow of what was to come and He has come. No one here is suggesting that we don't have to go to church and worship with the brethren. Heb 10 gives us that command to follow. No one here is suggesting that we not spend all of Sundays with our Lord. Any time you spend time under your pastor's teaching, the Sacraments, prayer, studying the Word you are being made into His image. Most of us do this because we love Him. As I have said before, Calvin had the most balanced view on this subject that I have ever read. Not only that, his life was a shining example to us all. He didn't just preach on Sundays his whole life was dedicated to preaching the Gospel all the time. But this is all I'll say about this matter. I only wanted to respond to your statement because I'm not an antinomian.

A chain of events made me realize I've been pretty slack about what I've allowed to happen in the wading pool.

This forum is for questions from the Newly Reformed

-AND-

Is designed to be answered by those with mature understandings of Reformed theology and those that will give Confessional explanations.

It's not a free for all where we get to opine about our answers.

This is not directed to anyone in particular in this thread but I need to make it clear that the discussion forward is not a "well I know the Confession teaches this but my opinion on this is...." There are places where we allow some latitude in pushing boundaries a bit so you can increase in your understanding but if you don't have a Confessional answer to a Wading Pool question then hold your peace.

Originally Posted by Scott1

Well, the question might be framed- Does Scripture have anything to say about:

1) How the Sabbath Day/Lord's Day is to be kept holy, that is set apart?
2) What constitutes worship?

I would say it clearly does, general principles with specific applications (and generously, exceptions for necessity and mercy). So do our Standards, summarizing the doctrine of Scripture.

This is very helpful because we are way beyond a superficial discussion that is sometimes had based on "everything is fulfilled in Christ" and therefore there is no application of the fourth commandment, nor the regulative principle. And beyond the moral relativism that so often informs discussions about what God requires of us. (I realize you are not, and have not ever, been saying that).

The flip side of this is how incredibly marvelous it is when one is able, at least a little, to truly enter in to "sabbath rest" on the Lord's Day, and call it a delight. It is such a marvelous provision of rest from the cares and worries that ordinarily consume our attention, even those that come from the labor of entertaining ourselves! It is the exact opposite from the pretense and burden that "legalism" is based on.

It something the Puritans apparently obtained a high degree of understanding of- and our Standards, and all the historic Confessions reflect that.

Once again I appreciate your thoughts and insight, Scott. I don't really disagree with anything you say, and really admire your high view of the Sabbath - I could certainly learn from you on that. But I think we're viewing the issue from slightly different angles. I think we fundamentally agree on doctrine and broadly on application but differ somewhat in the specifics of how we keep the 4th Commandment. I agree, this discussion is very helpful.

Since the focus is legalism, I would just say again that I don't think striving to keep the exact letter of the Law with the intent to honor and obey God is legalism as it pertains to the Sabbath. Rather, I think where we differ is I believe there are certain specific activities that Christians, even Reformed and Puritanesque Christians, can disagree about. My point is that to come up with an absolute set of dos and don'ts applicable to everyone beyond what is in the Word (and distilled in the WCF) is legalism, because it imposes human standards. I think if we came up with a list of activities we would agree 95% of the time on what is permissible and what isn't. But in that 5% where we may disagree I don't think we can say with Scriptural certainty that one or the other is sinful.

-----Added 2/5/2009 at 06:29:48 EST-----

Oops, just saw Rich's post after I posted mine. Please feel free to move or delete if I stepped out of bounds.

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

A chain of events made me realize I've been pretty slack about what I've allowed to happen in the wading pool.

This forum is for questions from the Newly Reformed

-AND-

Is designed to be answered by those with mature understandings of Reformed theology and those that will give Confessional explanations.

It's not a free for all where we get to opine about our answers.

This is not directed to anyone in particular in this thread but I need to make it clear that the discussion forward is not a "well I know the Confession teaches this but my opinion on this is...." There are places where we allow some latitude in pushing boundaries a bit so you can increase in your understanding but if you don't have a Confessional answer to a Wading Pool question then hold your peace.

But Rich, I started the thread that this one was split off of at the behest of an admin. I was a little taken aback, seeing I'd been Reformed for 14 years, but thought maybe my question indicated to the brother that I was not yet 'adequately' reformed, and thus should spend my time in the shallow end lest I hurt myself. Was I wrong to submit to my senior brother's direction?

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by Wannabee

The bikini clad lass is only appropriate if she is your wife, no matter what day of the week. Who's Sherry?

Of course she's the wife- hence 'of God's choosing'. Sherry is a very small lass that can fit into a glass, of course.

Theognome

Originally Posted by calgal

This is a breakaway question from the Sabbatarian thread of Brad's. To avoid going down a rabbit trail, I started a new thread. My question is this: At what point does observing the Sabbath go from obedience to God to legalism? I have seen some disturbing behaviors chalked up to being "Sabbatarian." FWIW, I have seen the extremes (had an uncle who was paid to turn on the lights for a neighbor every Saturday) and the really amazing mental gymnastics needed for a guy in a black hat to carry housekeys with him (Eruv is a word to google to explain the mechanics of this "law").

The second question I have is if there is a point where following the law becomes a sort of idol. I do not ask either question to start a flame war but to understand a little better where the Sabbatarians are coming from.

Thanks!

I tend to think that something is legalistic if it is seen as a necessary part of our justification before God. Those in Galatia wanted to add the Law to Christ, via circumcision. Those in Colossae wanted to add worldly celebrations and monkish lifestyles to Christ. None wanted to cast Christ aside, but each wanted to cast you aside if you didn't see that something more needed to be added, for Christ was not enough for them. Self always wants a part in our right standing with God. And so, my test as to legalism is this: If the ceasing of doing this certain thing disrupts my right standing with God, or cancels His covenant with me, then that thing is a legalism. It is, because it is being trusted in as a necessity for one's justification. Justification is apart from all works of the Law, including our efforts of keeping the Law after we are justified. It is founded and maintained entirely on covenental atonement and imputation. And so, if any part of our Sabbath keeping is seen as something that we must do in order to establish, or to maintain, our peace with God or God's covenant with us, then our Sabbath keeping is now a legalism. Our pursuit of obedience to God in the Sabbath command is to be done entirely out of love for our God, and heartfelt desire towards communion with him, as his covenantal children.

I do think that, with regard to his commands, the consciences of many are stricken to different degrees and levels. And so, we see some who adhere to a very rigid understanding of what is permissable, and others who adhere more to a moderate or mild understanding of the same. So, I would tend to never use the word "legalistic" to describe them, as most of the world unfairly does. I don't think they are being legalistic in any sense of the word unless they are "adding works to Christ". So, I would prefer to view them as having an "intense conscience".

As for the second part in your OP, I would say that the idol begins to exist when the command is either honored in isolation of it's Giver (like by the Jews who rejected Christ), or when it is honored in a way that is inappropriate in relation to it's Giver (like those in Galatia did with circumcision). For one to keep the Sabbath and to not keep Christ, (i.e. as an unbeliever), is to dishonor and mock God in the first way. And, for one to keep the Sabbath as a necessary addition to Christ, (as some in Galatia wanted to keep circumcision), is to dishonor and mock God in the second way. Both could be viewed as making an idol, or a substitute god, out of the command. But, for a believer to have an intense conscience towards the Sabbath would not mean that they were making an idol out of it. It's just that their conscience would constrain them more than most in their application of their love for God.

This tends to be how I view it for now.

Blessings!

I want to respond to this statement I read above:

I'm not to neglect the gathering of the brethren however many times that may be.


There are many churches that have Sunday school, morning worship, evening worship, tuesday night visitation, wednesday prayer meeting, and then a small group meeting on another day.

That is sometimes too much. More church does not equate to more holiness. I know folks who bragged about people that "everytime the church doors opened, they were there..." but I am not impressed when I hear this. A holy man will prioritize family too.

Joseph Hart (1712-1768)

Some Christians to the Lord regard a day,
And others to the Lord regard it not;
Now, though these seem to choose a diff-rent way,
Yet both, at last, to one same point are brought.

He that regards the day will reason thus –
“This glorious day our Saviour and our King
Perform’d some mighty act of love for us;
Observe the time in mem’ry of the thing.”

Thus he to Jesus point his kind intent,
And offers prayers and praises in his name;
As to the Lord above his love is meant,
The Lord accepts it; and who dare to blame?

For, though the shell indeed is not the meat,
‘Tis not rejected when the meat’s within;
Though superstition is a vain conceit,
Commemoration surely is no sin.

He also, that to days has no regard,
The shadows only for the substance quits;
Towards the Saviour’s presence presses hard,
And outward things through eagerness omits.

For warmly to himself he thus reflects-
“My Lord alone I count my chiefest good;
All empty forms my craving soul rejects,
And seeks the solid riches of his blood.

“All days and times I place my sole delight
In him, the only object of my care;
External shows for his dear sake I slight,
Lest ought but Jesus my respect should share.”

Let not th’ observer, therefore, entertain
Against his brother any secret grudge;
Nor let the non-observer call him vain;
But use his freedom, and forbear to judge.

Thus both may bring their motives to the test;
Our condescending Lord will both approve.
Let each pursue the way that likes him best;
he cannot walk amiss, that walks in love.

as quoted in From Sabbath to Lord’s Day: A Biblical, Historical, and Theological Investigation, edited by D.A. Carson, Wipf and Stock Publishers.
Poetry, Doctrine, Sabbath… 5pointers

Originally Posted by sjonee

I don't believe that I'm setting the Law aside just because I'm setting the Jewish Sabbath aside. As Col 2:16 says, it was a shadow of the Substance to come. I know that many in the reformed circle believe that the "Sabbath" mentioned in Col 2:16 is speaking of ceremonial Sabbaths, but there are others from the reformed circle like Joseph Pipa who believe that verse is a command to leave behind the Jewish Sabbath and then he uses other verses to establish a Christian Sabbath. Point being, no one within the reformed circle agrees on the interpretation of Col 2:16. I take this verse along with many other verses in the NT and to make my conclusions, on which I'm still working. His yoke is easy and His burden is light only because He is the one doing the work in us, therefore it isn't burdensome nor is it a yoke of hardship. He does the justification, sanctification, and glorification. We love His law only because of the work He has done within us. Actually, faith's only job is to receive. Faith doesn't produce anything. It is what I receive from Christ through faith that produces good fruit. We must look to the object of our faith, which is Christ Jesus. He is the one who produces good fruit in you through faith. Faith would be useless if we didn't have Someone who is the object of our faith. Setting aside one day out of the week is a type and shadow of what was to come and He has come. No one here is suggesting that we don't have to go to church and worship with the brethren. Heb 10 gives us that command to follow. No one here is suggesting that we not spend all of Sundays with our Lord. Any time you spend time under your pastor's teaching, the Sacraments, prayer, studying the Word you are being made into His image. Most of us do this because we love Him. As I have said before, Calvin had the most balanced view on this subject that I have ever read. Not only that, his life was a shining example to us all. He didn't just preach on Sundays his whole life was dedicated to preaching the Gospel all the time. But this is all I'll say about this matter. I only wanted to respond to your statement because I'm not an antinomian.

So you don't believe that you are to keep the 10 commandments (the 4th one at least) or even the example of God himself in Genesis where he rested on the 7th day? What do you think was the moral principle being set forth in the 4th commandment and in Genesis? I can see how the ceremonial cleansings and sacrifices have been fulfilled in Christ in a way as to be completely useless now, but the rest of the law is morally binding. Can you go ahead and ignore the rest of the ten commandments now too because he kept those for you also?

Originally Posted by Augusta

Originally Posted by sjonee

I don't believe that I'm setting the Law aside just because I'm setting the Jewish Sabbath aside. As Col 2:16 says, it was a shadow of the Substance to come. I know that many in the reformed circle believe that the "Sabbath" mentioned in Col 2:16 is speaking of ceremonial Sabbaths, but there are others from the reformed circle like Joseph Pipa who believe that verse is a command to leave behind the Jewish Sabbath and then he uses other verses to establish a Christian Sabbath. Point being, no one within the reformed circle agrees on the interpretation of Col 2:16. I take this verse along with many other verses in the NT and to make my conclusions, on which I'm still working. His yoke is easy and His burden is light only because He is the one doing the work in us, therefore it isn't burdensome nor is it a yoke of hardship. He does the justification, sanctification, and glorification. We love His law only because of the work He has done within us. Actually, faith's only job is to receive. Faith doesn't produce anything. It is what I receive from Christ through faith that produces good fruit. We must look to the object of our faith, which is Christ Jesus. He is the one who produces good fruit in you through faith. Faith would be useless if we didn't have Someone who is the object of our faith. Setting aside one day out of the week is a type and shadow of what was to come and He has come. No one here is suggesting that we don't have to go to church and worship with the brethren. Heb 10 gives us that command to follow. No one here is suggesting that we not spend all of Sundays with our Lord. Any time you spend time under your pastor's teaching, the Sacraments, prayer, studying the Word you are being made into His image. Most of us do this because we love Him. As I have said before, Calvin had the most balanced view on this subject that I have ever read. Not only that, his life was a shining example to us all. He didn't just preach on Sundays his whole life was dedicated to preaching the Gospel all the time. But this is all I'll say about this matter. I only wanted to respond to your statement because I'm not an antinomian.

So you don't believe that you are to keep the 10 commandments (the 4th one at least) or even the example of God himself in Genesis where he rested on the 7th day? What do you think was the moral principle being set forth in the 4th commandment and in Genesis? I can see how the ceremonial cleansings and sacrifices have been fulfilled in Christ in a way as to be completely useless now, but the rest of the law is morally binding. Can you go ahead and ignore the rest of the ten commandments now too because he kept those for you also?

What exactly do you call sabbath keeping then?

Westminster Larger Catechism


Question 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?

Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

Hard to do perfectly, but we try, in good faith, only by His grace- that He might be glorified through us.

God gives us faith to do this and blesses obedience.

Originally Posted by calgal

What exactly do you call sabbath keeping then?

I must say I find the Heidelberg Catechism very complete and balanced on this, emphasis mine


103.Q. What does God require
in the fourth commandment?
A. First,
that the ministry of the gospel and the schools
be maintained 1
and that, especially on the day of rest,
I diligently attend the church of God 2
to hear God’s Word,3
to use the sacraments,4
to call publicly upon the LORD,5
and to give Christian offerings for the poor.6
Second,
that all the days of my life
I rest from my evil works,
let the LORD work in me through His Holy Spirit,
and so begin in this life
the eternal Sabbath.

ColdSilverMoon

Since the focus is legalism, I would just say again that I don't think striving to keep the exact letter of the Law with the intent to honor and obey God is legalism as it pertains to the Sabbath.
It would seem it requires both- outward obedience and a right heart inwardly. Thankfully, Christ always had that, and faith in that is the basis upon which we are saved.

"Legalism," as I understand it, is better thought of as

1)adding to God's commands or

2)basing our righteousness upon our own obedience, rather than on Christ's (humbly acknowledging we constantly fall short, both outwardly and inwardly).

It's not the fact we do, in fact, outwardly obey, that makes it "legalistic" though we can do things with wrong motives.

Rather, I think where we differ is I believe there are certain specific activities that Christians, even Reformed and Puritanesque Christians, can disagree about.
There have been discussions here about the "Continental" and "Puritan" views of the sabbath. From what I have gathered, they do not differ as to substance. Others have stated, by research here, that the differences have been exaggerated (e.g. that Mr. Calvin did not, in fact, advocate 'lawn bowling' on the sabbath).

Be that as it is, the "Puritan" view clearly is reflected in our standards.

The real question of course is which is more biblical. I have come to the understanding that the Westminster Standards and London Baptist Confession of Faith on this point are right on biblically. They reflect the notion that keeping the sabbath holy involves a coming apart from the ordinary recreational pursuits of the rest of the week. It seems to me this is part of beginning something of the true "sabbath rest" spoken of in Hebrews 3:4. It is not an ordinary or common thing.

My point is that to come up with an absolute set of dos and don'ts applicable to everyone beyond what is in the Word (and distilled in the WCF) is legalism, because it imposes human standards.
I know you understand this, but for the benefit of those reading here- as we are "Confessional" (subscribe to a creed, the Westminster Confession of Faith), we understand that the unity of the church is based on doctrinal agreement. Our denomination denomination does not require members to even comprehend fully our standards let alone agree with every proposition of doctrine in them. It only requires a holy promise to peaceable study them. Officers though, are required to have comprehensive knowledge of those standards and to affirm every statement and proposition of doctrine in them, unless granted a peer-reviewed "exception."

All this to say, that the actual behaviors such as playing frisbee in the park, even with other Christians, on the Lord's Day has implications with our standards. While it's not really a list of "do's and dont's" they do affect actual behaviors, and they are not really dependent on whether an individual thinks so much of it as sin or not. A Confessional church is held together by doctrinal agreement.

This is not "legalism" but rather, the peace and purity of the church is dependent on it.

I think if we came up with a list of activities we would agree 95% of the time on what is permissible and what isn't. But in that 5% where we may disagree I don't think we can say with Scriptural certainty that one or the other is sinful.

We have touched all the points now, so I will add nothing further. Thanks much for the interaction on all this. Perhaps this will be helpful to others considering this now- and God will use it in our lives for His Honor and His Glory!

Originally Posted by discipulo

Originally Posted by calgal

What exactly do you call sabbath keeping then?

I must say I find the Heidelberg Catechism very complete and balanced on this, emphasis mine


103.Q. What does God require
in the fourth commandment?
A. First,
that the ministry of the gospel and the schools
be maintained 1
and that, especially on the day of rest,
I diligently attend the church of God 2
to hear God’s Word,3
to use the sacraments,4
to call publicly upon the LORD,5
and to give Christian offerings for the poor.6
Second,
that all the days of my life
I rest from my evil works,
let the LORD work in me through His Holy Spirit,
and so begin in this life
the eternal Sabbath.

And what else?

Originally Posted by Brad

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

A chain of events made me realize I've been pretty slack about what I've allowed to happen in the wading pool.

This forum is for questions from the Newly Reformed

-AND-

Is designed to be answered by those with mature understandings of Reformed theology and those that will give Confessional explanations.

It's not a free for all where we get to opine about our answers.

This is not directed to anyone in particular in this thread but I need to make it clear that the discussion forward is not a "well I know the Confession teaches this but my opinion on this is...." There are places where we allow some latitude in pushing boundaries a bit so you can increase in your understanding but if you don't have a Confessional answer to a Wading Pool question then hold your peace.

But Rich, I started the thread that this one was split off of at the behest of an admin. I was a little taken aback, seeing I'd been Reformed for 14 years, but thought maybe my question indicated to the brother that I was not yet 'adequately' reformed, and thus should spend my time in the shallow end lest I hurt myself. Was I wrong to submit to my senior brother's direction?

Not at all Brad. My main concern is that I want the answers you receive to your questions to be Confessional answers. That's the purpose of this forum.

Let me give an example because I really think Fred came up with the best analogy of the way this board operates.

If you raise your hand during Sunday School and ask your pastor a question because you're still learning, you expect him to give you an orthodox answer. Now, what if an entire debate ensues in the Sunday School classroom where 50 different people weigh in and they even start their offshoot debates.

This medium doesn't lend itself to the kind of discipline most would have in a Sunday School setting so I have to bring it externally.

I am glad that you asked the question but I lost track of the fact that this thread was in the Wading Pool and, from the beginning, we Mods should have been keeping the Answers to a minimal set of orthodox answers. I'm probably going to add the same sort of restrictions that the Pastoral Concerns forum has where only Elders can reply to threads but anyone can start them.