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"The Wading Pool" - Questions from the Newly Reformed discuss Isaiah 63:17 - Cannot understand in the Information and Introductions forums; Isaiah 63:17 gives me pause: 17 O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear ...

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    Isaiah 63:17 - Cannot understand

    Isaiah 63:17 gives me pause:

    17 O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways
    and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?
    Now I know it is true that God does harden and soften hearts for his own purposes.
    But here the writer is asking why God has harden his or their heart.

    How am I suppose to understand a verse like this?

    Is this a question I could/should/may ask?

    Or would that be blaming God for my own corrupt sinfulness?

    But (he asks trembling), if God made me inside and out, is not he somewhat responsible for my love of sin?

    Comments most welcome my friends.
    (and please don't blast me for asking!)

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    It's a lament by people who are in distress and lack understanding. God does not call the true seed of Abraham (those who are in Christ) to wander from His ways, nor does He harden their hearts. It may appear that God causes them to wander or He has hardened their heart, because it is a human response to trial and tribulation. A New Testament perspective would be:

    1 Peter 4:12-13 12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
    Bill Brown
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    pm
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    North Jersey Baptist: It's a lament by people who are in distress and lack understanding.
    Seems to me if they understand it is God who hardens hearts they have a good understanding, how many today understand this?

    North Jersey Baptist: God does not call the true seed of Abraham (those who are in Christ) to wander from His ways, nor does He harden their hearts.
    This sound reasonable and right, but it also sound a bit too neat.

    For example, could it be that God will harden the heart of a Christian for a time to demonstrate His power and righteouness as he did with King Nebuchadnezzar?

    Daniel 4:34,35 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
    for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
    35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
    and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
    and among the inhabitants of the earth;
    and none can stay his hand
    or say to him, “What have you done?”
    I am not trying to be argumentative here, but just trying to sort this out in my own mind.

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    [quote=pmkadow;477479]Isaiah 63:17 gives me pause:

    17 O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways
    and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?
    Excellent verse!!! Thanks for posting it! I agree with your thoughts concerning this, as well as your thoughts concerning Nebuchadnezzar. I think there is a way to reconcile God's sovereignty over us in every way, and our responsibility for our own persons and behavior, which seems to be what you're looking for. Remember that God does not violate our wills, and force them to go in a direction opposite to them, hence we are responsible for our choices. Our wills are governed by our nature. But, he has now imparted his Spirit within our nature or persons, and he does both impose and withdraw his Spirit, in varying degrees of activity, within ourselves. Ezekial 36:27 says that God will, in that day, "put his Spirit in them and cause them to walk in his statutes." And yet, he does not violate our wills in doing so, but rather intrudes into our persons and fashions and prompts us to so choose. And, similarly, when he withdraws his Spirit to a certain degree, we find ourselves more overrun by the sin within us, and choose otherwise, as Saul, David, Samson, and many others illustrate. So, our responsibility is never violated. And yet, our dependence upon him is never lacking. It is true that we are responsible for what we cannot do, for we are responsible according to the ability that Adam had before the fall, not after.

    As to why he does this, I think it is for the growth of our faith and the development of our total reliance upon him for all things. It humbles us to see that, as Christ said, "without me, you can do nothing". So, it prompts us to dwell in a state of prayer and depencency nearly every second.......instilling a mindset that always looks to our Father for the next drop of grace. And, as you say, he does it primarily for the glory of his grace and the praise of his name.

    Blessings!
    Last edited by moral necessity; 10-10-2008 at 08:48 AM.
    Charles Plauger
    Grace Reformed Church
    Woodstock, VA

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    VirginiaHuguenot is offline. Puritanboard Librarian
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    Here are a few comments on this passage which may be of use:

    Westminster Confession:

    Section 17.3.—Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; [Matt 26:70,72,74] and for a time continue therein: [Ps 51:14] whereby they incur God's displeasure, [Isa 64:5,7,9; 2 Sam 11:27] and grieve his Holy Spirit; [Eph 4:30] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; [Ps 51:8,10,12; Rev 2:4; Song 5:2-4,6] have their hearts hardened, [Isa 63:17; Mark 6:52; Mark 16:14] and their consciences wounded; [Ps 32:3-4; Ps 51:8] hurt and scandalize others, [2 Sam 12:14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves. [Ps 89:31-32; 1 Cor 11:32]
    John Collinges/Matthew Poole:

    Isa 63:17. Made us to err from thy ways, commandments. It is the language of the godly among them being troubled, and therefore complaining that so gracious a Father should leave them to such exigences. Made us to sin by withdrawing thy Spirit and leaving us to ourselves, Ps 81:12. It is not to be understood as if God did force them to it, but either letting loose their hearts, or by giving occasion to their hearts, being naturally too apt to apostatize by their severe afflictions: see this more cleared in the Latin Synopsis. Or, make us desperate, by leaving us so long under the oppression of the adversary, thereby casting off thy worship.
    Matthew Henry:

    II. The complaints they made to God. Two things they complained of:—1. That they were given up to themselves, and God's grace did not recover them, Isa 63:17. It is a strange expostulation, "Why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, that is, many among us, the generality of us; and this complaint we have all of us some cause to make that thou hast hardened our heart from thy fear." Some make it to be the language of those among them that were impious and profane; when the prophets reproved them for the error of their ways, their hardness of heart, and contempt of God's word and commandments, they with a daring impudence charged their sin upon God, made him the author of it, and asked why doth he then find fault? Note, Those are wicked indeed that lay the blame of their wickedness upon God. But I rather take it to be the language of those among them that lamented the unbelief and impenitence of their people, not accusing God of being the author of their wickedness, but complaining of it to him. They owned that they had erred from God's ways, that their hearts had been hardened from his fear, that they had not received the impressions which the fear of God ought to make upon them and this was the cause of all their errors from his ways; or from his fear may mean from the true worship of God, and that is a hard heart indeed which is alienated from the service of a God so incontestably great and good. Now this they complain of, as their great misery and burden, that God had for their sins left them to this, had permitted them to err from his ways and had justly withheld his grace, so that their hearts were hardened from his fear. When they ask, Why hast thou done this? it is not as charging him with wrong, but lamenting it as a sore judgment. God had caused them to err and hardened their hearts, not only by withdrawing his Spirit from them, because they had grieved, and vexed, and quenched him (Isa 63:10), but by a judicial sentence upon them (Go, make the heart of this people fat, Isa 6:9-10) and by his providences concerning them, which had proved sad occasions for their departure from him. David complains of his banishment, because in it he was in effect bidden to go and serve other gods, 1 Sam 26:19. Their troubles had alienated many of them from God, and prejudiced them against his service; and, because the rod of the wicked had lain long on their lot, they were ready to put forth their hand unto iniquity (Ps 125:3), and this was the thing they complained most of; their afflictions were their temptations, and to many of them invincible ones. Note, Convinced consciences complain most of spiritual judgments and dread that most in an affliction which draws them from God and duty. 2. That they were given up to their enemies, and God's providence did not rescue and relieve them (Isa 63:18): Our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary. As it was a grief to them that in their captivity the generality of them had lost their affection to God's worship, and had their hearts hardened from it by their affliction, so it was a further grief that they were deprived of their opportunities of worshipping God in solemn assemblies. They complained not so much of the adversaries treading down their houses and cities as of their treading down God's sanctuary, because thereby God was immediately affronted, and they were robbed of the comforts they valued most and took most pleasure in.
    Thomas Manton:

    [4.] To understand God's concurrence as a judge, we must not say too much of it or too little. We must not say too much of it, lest we leave a stain and blemish upon the divine glory. God infuseth no sin, no blindness nor hardness, into the hearts of men; all influences from heaven are good: he conveyeth no deceit into the minds of men immediately, nor doth he command or persuade men to oppose the truth. Nor doth he impel or excite their inward propensions so to do. All this belongeth not to God, but either to man or Satan. Nor must we say too little; as, for instance, God is not said to blind or harden by bare prescience or foresight, that they will be blinded or hardened; because God foreseeth other things, and yet they are not ascribed unto God; as that men will kill, or steal, or do wrong, and yet God is not said to kill or steal, as he is said to blind and harden; and therefore there is a difference between God's concurrence to this effect and other sins. Nor only by way of manifestation, as if this were all the sense, that in the course of his providence God doth in the issue declare how blind and hard they are. That some other thing is meant by it is seen in the prayers by which we deprecate this heavy judgment. As when the saints pray, Isa 63:17, "Lord, harden not our hearts from thy fear;" or David, Ps 119:19, "Lord, hide not thy commandments from me." They mean not thus, Lord, show not to the world how hard and blind I am, but cure my blindness and hardness of heart; keep back this judgment from me. Again, we must not say that all that God doth is a bare, naked, and idle permission, as if it happened besides his will and intention, and God had no more to do in it than a man that standeth on the shore and seeth a ship ready to be drowned: he might have helped it, but permitted it. No; besides all this, there is not a bare permission only, but a permissive intention and a judicial sentence, which is seconded by an active providence. Many things concur to the blinding of the mind and hardening of the heart, all which God willeth, but justly. The wicked take occasions of their own accord to blind and harden themselves. Satan tempteth of his own malice, but all this could not be done with effect and success without the will of God. There is a supreme power overruling, and ordering all that is done in the world.
    Henry Scudder:

    The second is, a hardness mixed with some softness, which is felt and bewailed; this is incident to God's children: of this the church complains, saying unto God, Why hast thou hardened our hearts against thy fear? Isa 63:17. Now when the heart feels its hardness, and complains of it, is grieved, and dislikes it, and would that it were tender like Josiah's, 2 Chron 34:27, so that it could melt at the hearing of the word; this is a sure proof that the heart is regenerate and not altogether hard, but has some measure of true softness; for it is by softness that hardness of heart is felt, witness your own experience; for before the hammer and fire of the word were applied to your hearts, you had no sense of it, and never complained thereof.
    Andrew

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    Herald's Avatar
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    Seems to me if they understand it is God who hardens hearts they have a good understanding, how many today understand this?
    I am of the belief that knowledge is complete when it is acted upon. To claim to know something and not to act on it displays a critical lack of knowledge. If the people of Israel had remembered Duet. 28, they would have understood the reason for their travail. When we go through affliction are we quick to recognize God's sovereignty, or do we initially moan and complain? The answer to that question reveals how much we really understand about God.

    As for Nebuchadnezzar, there is debate on whether he truly became a believer Yahweh. Bet let's suppose he did. He certainly was not a believer during the seven years he spent in madness. That period of time may have resulted in his conversion but he was not converted during that period of time. So no, God does not harden the hearts of His children or cause them to wander from Him. The key to understanding this is recognizing that we are His teknia, children. The Father may discipline us, in love, but He does not direct evil upon those whom His Son has purchased. If there is hardening among the children of God, it is self-induced by continuing in sin.
    Bill Brown
    Elder
    Grace Baptist Church
    Student at Midwest Center for Theological Studies


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    pm
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    Thank you so much for your replies, but I must say after reading the replies and the quotes I am no closer to understanding this verse. Maybe the fault lies in me, when so much is said about a subject, it seems like much to do about nothing, but my lack of understanding is my problem (I have always had trouble with wordy commentaries). But I know we serve a great God to be worshiped!

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    armourbearer is offline. Moderator
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    William Guthrie has an excellent sermon on this text. It should be available online. He explains the manner in which God hardens the hearts of His people as follows:

    But before we come to any observations from the words, lest the expression should be mistaken, and lest any of our apprehensions should be intermingled with wrong thoughts of the majesty of God, ye should know and consider,

    1. That whenever it is said that the Lord hardens, it is not meant that He does so by infusing any sinful qualities into the heart of man: as it is expressed by the apostle, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man: for he is incomprehensibly holy, and infinitely removed from being accessary to anything that is sinful in the creature. But,

    2. It is said He hardens when He not only permits and leaves the man to the hardness of his own heart, which is natural unto the sons of fallen Adam, but also when He withholds or withdraws somewhat of that grace given to the creature, on which hardness of heart follows; and the majesty of God being under no obligation to give grace unto the creature, either by a natural necessity of Himself, or yet by merit in the creature, that hardness of heart cannot be charged upon Him, nor yet can He be blamed for the withholding of abused grace from them. Besides this, He may present objects occasionally, which may be good, nay, are good in themselves, and yet by the person's own corruption abusing them, they may harden the heart. For instance, professors may make use of the ordinances of Christ, and their own gifts, unto their own hardening. Also, He may give up a person to his own lusts, and to the power or hand of Satan, to be hardened, as a punishment of his former sins and iniquities. As the Psalmist says, "My people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them tip unto their own hearts lusts; and they walked in their own counsels." And as this may come to a great height in the case of natural men, even so it may be in some degrees incident unto the people and children of God.

    Having thus premised these few things for guarding against mistakes, ye must look upon the complaint as not being spoken in a way of proud or ill-natured expostulation laying all the blame upon God, and evading or shifting it off themselves; no, the words intimate the Lord's carriage towards the church-members who are speaking here. Nor are we to think that these words are spoken irreverently in the way of complaining of God; but only in the way of expostulation with themselves; as if they had said, "Lord, what have we done that hath provoked Thee to deal thus with us I" There is an insinuation of a desire to know what sin in them it was that had brought on this plague or stroke of hardness of heart, which was grievous to them beyond anything in their external condition and captivity.

    Now having taken the words in this sense, we come shortly to draw some doctrinal observations from them. And,

    I. In general, we observe, that a child of God, when in his own proper latitude, will be very diligent in taking notice of God's dispensations about and towards his own heart, and is in some case to make a representation to God how it is with his soul. Oh, how sad is it when God is dealing with our hearts, and yet we are not so much as taking notice what either God or the devil is doing about them! If the Lord reach not the carcase with some extraordinary judgment, heart-maladies never trouble many. It seems to be one of the evils of the time wherein we live, that many, even good folk, are become strangers in a great measure unto their own heart's ease and condition. We are so seldom in our approaches to God, in any case to make a serious representation of the posture of our spiritual affairs, but just as if we were in one country, and our hearts in another, we are become so great strangers unto them. But,

    II. And more particularly, I observe, that hardness of heart, or heart-hardening, is an evil incident unto the people of God. It is by such that this complaint is made, "Why hast thou made us to err, and hardened our heart from thy fear ?" And we think that much hardness of heart, or blindness of mind, could not have seen and felt such a weight; and we think it is with much bashfulness uttered; being spoken by those who before were ashamed, that they could not plead an interest in God as their Father, being so much degenerated from their ancestors. Yet they are necessitated to lay claim to God. They are such as give much credit; as if the look of His eye could redress their condition, and they are in case to observe the former dispensations of God, and to compare them with their present case. They likewise take up a great alteration of His kindness towards them. The case of David is a proof of this, who for near the space of a year was bound up under hardness of heart. Solomon is a proof of this, who for some time was inclined unto idolatry. Asa is a proof of this, who imprisoned the prophet, and oppressed some of the people, and under his disease sought unto the physicians, and not unto the Lord. It is probable the time wherein we live affords us likewise many a sad proof of the.truth of it. Oh! hardness in part, and in many degrees is incident even unto the people of God.
    Yours sincerely,
    Rev. Matthew Winzer
    Australian Free Church,
    Victoria, Australia

    "Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

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    God does not violate our wills?

    Moral Necessity writes: Remember that God does not violate our wills, and force them to go in a direction opposite to them, hence we are responsible for our choices. Our wills are governed by our nature. But, he has now imparted his Spirit within our nature or persons, and he does both impose and withdraw his Spirit, in varying degrees of activity, within ourselves.
    Yea, the part about God does not violate our wills. Dr James White says that God ordains the means and well as the ends. Or, he works in us to change our wills (as I understand it). Isn't that almost the same as violating our wills?

    "Jonathan Edwards has sometimes been quoted—notably by R. C. Sproul—as referring to the irresistible call of God as the "holy rape of the soul," but the phrase does not appear in Edwards' Works. Instead, the phrase seems to have been coined by Puritan scholar Perry Miller, and most Calvinists distance themselves from it."
    Would not we say that the "holy rape of the soul" violates our will?
    Or maybe you do not agree with that statement.

    I am not dogmatically making a statement here, but would like to discuss it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmkadow View Post
    Isaiah 63:17 gives me pause:

    17 O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways
    and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?
    Now I know it is true that God does harden and soften hearts for his own purposes.
    But here the writer is asking why God has harden his or their heart.

    How am I suppose to understand a verse like this?
    As is often the case, context has clues. Here Isaiah is speaking as a representative of the nation of Israel and not the believing remnant. For the preceding material (from v. 7) recounts God's dealings with the nation of Israel, and v. 17 specifically mentions "the tribes of your inheritance." The books of Judges, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles document in overwhelming detail that many within the nation repeatedly turned away from God (v. 11ff) and stayed rebellious despite all that God did. Isaiah rightly recognizes that God has hardened the hearts of his contemporaries and the result is God is not revered in the nation as a whole. This hardening of heart is something God actively imposes (contra Manton) as a judicial punishment of particular sinners. God is free to punish any sinners at any time with any judgment he wishes up to and including eternal death and such judgments are not evil but righteous.

    Isaiah does not understand God's reasons for hardening thier hearts and and he asks why God has done this, then launches into his great prayer of ch 63:17b through the end of ch. 64. God answers him in ch. 65 saying that those who turn away will be judged (vv. 1-7) but the remnant will be saved (v. 8 ff). As is often the case, this answer does not answer all our questions but leaves us with enough of an answer that we can trust God for what we don't know.

    We have a parallel today. When substantial minorities or an outright majority of professing Christians may be clearly seen to be turning from God and hardened in their ways, true Christians will recognize that God is hardening rebellious hearts and may be puzzled as to why he is doing it. From 63:7 to the end of 65, God, through Isaiah, relieves any puzzlement arising from such situations.

    The passage also tells us that Christians should challenge widespread apostacy by fervent prayer as well as preaching (Isaiah was a fervent preacher, but this passage shows him an equally fiery pray-er). Isaiah recognizes that a judicial hardenings of heart on the part of many of God's professing people are not to be passively endured by the remnant. Instead he sees that such afflictions afflict the remnant as well and are to be prayed against. This latter lesson does not seem to be widely known today. I cannot remember seeing an evangelical group or Reformed denom (not micro denom) issue any calls to prayer because of apostacies in God's professing church.
    Last edited by timmopussycat; 10-11-2008 at 10:24 AM.
    In Christ's love and service

    Mr. Tim Cunningham,
    Diploma in Christian Studies, Regent College, Vancouver
    Author: How Firm a Foundation? An Exegetical and Historical Critique of the "Ethical Perspective of [Christian] Reconstructionism" Presented in Theonomy in Christian Ethics, Wipf & Stock, 2012.
    Bachelor of Music in Trombone Performance, University of Toronto
    Member, First Baptist Church
    Vancouver, BC
    ------------
    "I once sat in darkness, and waited for the moon to rise.
    I once sat in darkness, and waited for the sun to shine.
    I once sat in darkness, when all the light I'd waited for was gone.
    Then Jesus came, and now the only true light, ever, shines in me."
    – John Deacon -

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmkadow View Post
    Moral Necessity writes: Remember that God does not violate our wills, and force them to go in a direction opposite to them, hence we are responsible for our choices. Our wills are governed by our nature. But, he has now imparted his Spirit within our nature or persons, and he does both impose and withdraw his Spirit, in varying degrees of activity, within ourselves.
    Yea, the part about God does not violate our wills. Dr James White says that God ordains the means and well as the ends. Or, he works in us to change our wills (as I understand it). Isn't that almost the same as violating our wills?

    "Jonathan Edwards has sometimes been quoted—notably by R. C. Sproul—as referring to the irresistible call of God as the "holy rape of the soul," but the phrase does not appear in Edwards' Works. Instead, the phrase seems to have been coined by Puritan scholar Perry Miller, and most Calvinists distance themselves from it."
    Would not we say that the "holy rape of the soul" violates our will?
    Or maybe you do not agree with that statement.

    I am not dogmatically making a statement here, but would like to discuss it.
    The change that God does is not a violation of our wills but a change of our heart. The unregenerate man has a heart that is in bondage to sin with no capacity to choose the good out of a pure heat and thus sins in all he does. He is also blinded and so cannot see the truth. When God calls, the one so called sees the truth and the Lord. At the same time he is freed from his bondage to sin and, for the first time in his life, has free will (in the sense that that term is usually defined by Arminians). Let me supply an illustration to show what happens next. The analogy is not exact in all details but some have found it helpful.

    Suppose we have a blind man who wants to commit suicide. He is walking down a familliar road that he knows so well he doesn't use his cane. Twenty feet in front of him a bridge over a deep ravine has just collapsed and he is walking unaware closer and closer to a sheer 300 foot drop. At 10 feet from the edge two things happen, he miraculously receives both his sight and a deep desire to live. Now that he can see that the bridge is out, he faces a conscious choice. Does he keep walking and go over the cliff, or does he stop or turn away? Had his desire for suicide not been replaced by a deep desire to live he would have gone on over the edge, but now having the changed desire, the choice is both free and inevitable; he stops or turns. Does he boast in the choice he made? No, rather he gives thanks to the one who healed both his sight and his heart so that the choice he made was both possible and inevitable.

    One may argue that such changes are still violations. To such arguments I would say God has the right to do with us what he wants so even if they are apparent violations from our perspective, they are not violations from his perspective as he is perfectly within his rights to do with us as he pleases.
    But I deny that God's actions violate my will. Rather my will is freed to choose an alternative it was not free to choose before. The circumstances of the situation were such that although I freely chose belief and its consequences over the unbelieving alternative, the rejected alternative of unbelief was one that God had sovereingly made impossible for me. If one knows that Christ has died for sin and has risen for justification then it is impossible to believe in a worldview that denies these things.
    In Christ's love and service

    Mr. Tim Cunningham,
    Diploma in Christian Studies, Regent College, Vancouver
    Author: How Firm a Foundation? An Exegetical and Historical Critique of the "Ethical Perspective of [Christian] Reconstructionism" Presented in Theonomy in Christian Ethics, Wipf & Stock, 2012.
    Bachelor of Music in Trombone Performance, University of Toronto
    Member, First Baptist Church
    Vancouver, BC
    ------------
    "I once sat in darkness, and waited for the moon to rise.
    I once sat in darkness, and waited for the sun to shine.
    I once sat in darkness, when all the light I'd waited for was gone.
    Then Jesus came, and now the only true light, ever, shines in me."
    – John Deacon -

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    moral necessity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmkadow View Post
    Moral Necessity writes: Remember that God does not violate our wills, and force them to go in a direction opposite to them, hence we are responsible for our choices. Our wills are governed by our nature. But, he has now imparted his Spirit within our nature or persons, and he does both impose and withdraw his Spirit, in varying degrees of activity, within ourselves.
    Yea, the part about God does not violate our wills. Dr James White says that God ordains the means and well as the ends. Or, he works in us to change our wills (as I understand it). Isn't that almost the same as violating our wills?

    "Jonathan Edwards has sometimes been quoted—notably by R. C. Sproul—as referring to the irresistible call of God as the "holy rape of the soul," but the phrase does not appear in Edwards' Works. Instead, the phrase seems to have been coined by Puritan scholar Perry Miller, and most Calvinists distance themselves from it."
    Would not we say that the "holy rape of the soul" violates our will?
    Or maybe you do not agree with that statement.

    I am not dogmatically making a statement here, but would like to discuss it.
    I understand what you are saying here, and I agree with you. When I said that he does not violate our wills, I meant that we are still the one's who choose..........he does not choose in our place, but rather causes us to choose. I meant that he does not disrupt the order of operations within the creature that he created. He works within the structure that he established them with.........if that makes any sense. "He works in us to will and to do, according to his good pleasure." - Phil. 2:13

    Blessings!
    Charles Plauger
    Grace Reformed Church
    Woodstock, VA

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