Thread: Faith or No Faith?

Hi guys, and gals. First post, so be gently, like it says.
I was wondering if it is fair for me to say that only some have faith, while others do not. In the context of comparing belief and unbelief; can I say that a person either has faith or not? I have been told too many times that everybody believes something, however a person either believes God or they don't.
Forgive me for asking like this, but I would prefer the logical answer first, then scripture to support, because for some reason, going to scripture first with everyother question I get, gets me nowhere
The question again, Can I say that a person either has faith, or not?

Also, I admit that if going to scripture gets me nowhere, then the logical answer will get me even more nowhere. But I'd like edified to know whether I'm just in saying this or if it is in err.

Everyone has faith in something. That is, everyone has something they assume or take for granted or presuppose. These "presuppositions" are the basis upon which we move forward with any other sort of reasoning. (Be that reasoning the kind of "thoughtless" action such as pulling out your keys to unlock your door when you come home - you simply assume that your spouse hasn't kicked you out and changed the locks on you - or be it how we explain why every human has a moral sense.)

Of course, some people are really blind and as such have a very difficult time accepting that they assume ANYTHING.

So the challenge for us is to help them own up to their own "faith system" and to have them see if it is really internally coherent or not. And I'd add that any non-Christian "starting point" for the big questions and big assumptions of life will very quickly prove to be inconsistent.

Zach,

Let's separate generic faith from saving faith. I can have faith that a chair will support my weight, but that is not saving faith. Regarding saving faith, let's look at some scriptures.

Ephesians 2:8,9 says:

Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith is necessary for salvation. It (grace, salvation and faith) is the gift of God. Is this gift given to all? No. Consider what Paul wrote in Romans:

Romans 11:7 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Saving faith is the gift of God to those who will believe. Of course, we don't know who will believe. That knowledge remains in the mind of God alone. We are not in the position of determining whether a person has or does not have faith, but we can be sure that faith is necessary for salvation, and it is given, by God, to His elect.

Originally Posted by Herald

Zach,

Let's separate generic faith from saving faith. I can have faith that a chair will support my weight, but that is not saving faith. Regarding saving faith, let's look at some scriptures.

Wow, you found me my question when I couldn't, Thanks. Can a person call anything other than saving faith, faith?

Originally Posted by White Knight

Originally Posted by Herald

Zach,

Let's separate generic faith from saving faith. I can have faith that a chair will support my weight, but that is not saving faith. Regarding saving faith, let's look at some scriptures.

Wow, you found me my question when I couldn't, Thanks. Can a person call anything other than saving faith, faith?

Depends on how you define faith. If faith is the conviction of something that is unseen (Hebrews 11:1), I suppose it could apply to something other than saving faith. Call it a temporal faith. But temporal faith has no eternal value. It does not lead to saving faith. It's not a stepping stone to belief. Saving faith is gifted by God through grace.

If I used the word faith to describe anything other than saving faith, wouldn't I then be comparing it to saving faith. Wouldn't I be required to explain the different distinctions?
Like if I said, "I have faith in God, I have faith that the chair I sit in will hold me." Wouldn't I have to explain how my faith in the chair isn't the same as my faith in God? Could I reserve the right to only use the word faith in context with God?
Don't respond with, "Yes, of course you can." I'm curious if the word faith is being thrown around and become meaningless or if the word only has meaning because of the person...
In saying that statement, I sorta got an answer, but I would like to hear other thoughts.

Also, I like the temporal faith definition. Needed that.

A major factor in qualifying "faith" is it's object. If all one thinks about is "my" faith, how it is something the proceeds from me, generated somehow by a pure act of will, then something is missing from the discussion.

At the risk of making an aesthetic error, let me suggest that there is a similar difference when qualifying other items of interest. Consider the difference between the person who MOST enjoys the sound of a ripe garbage bag hitting the pavement from a 6-story drop, and the person who most enjoys Mozart's music.

Is there something different about those pleasures that is tied to the OBJECT, and not purely subjective? I believe so. We would call such difference the objective, relative quality of the two sounds. Mozart is simply better than garbage--and yes, that's a value judgment, but it still might be TRUE.

The OBJECT of the Christian faith is Jesus Christ. He is "altogether lovely," but not everyone appreciates him, even as not everyone appreciates Mozart, but prefers garbage.

Philippians 1:29 says that being able to believe (to have faith) in Christ is a gift of God. Not everyone is given a true apprehension of Christ, the object of saving faith. If someone is so granted (in God's sovereign pleasure), then he is also certainly united to him in saving faith.

Wow guys, I do nothing but promote your patience and my ignorant stupidity. I have re-read every post made and finally understand the answers I recieved were from the original question I asked. I just wish I had asked the correct question to begin with. So therefore, please forgive me and permit me to give you the context of my orignal post.

I am only a few years reformed, by every definition. All but a handfull of friends are calvinists. The others.....not. The "not" ones are rather skilled at jabs Which does nothing but agitate me. However, because of them, I know have read more and are confident that if push came to shove, I would still stand on solid ground.
When I asked "Can I say that a person either has faith, or not?"
It was to help strengthen the "not" ones that the strength they have is from God. But I wanted to make sure that I could justly say that some have faith and others do not or if I was in the wrong.

"Forgive me for asking like this, but I would prefer the logical answer first, then scripture to support, because for some reason, going to scripture first with everyother question I get, gets me nowhere"

The context of that statement. This wasn't in context with me..It was wtih the "Not ones. Again, forgive me for my lack of intelligence.

The "not" ones are rather skilled at jabs Which does nothing but agitate me.

Ask God to help you see it as an opportunity to grow in your understanding of Him, and be used by Him to engage others.

Saving faith is what you are talking about. It is faith in Christ's righteousness alone as the basis for your salvation. When God regenerates a sinner with the Holy Spirit, it immediately produces saving faith.

Someone who has not been regenerated (saved) does not have that kind of faith. Indeed, cannot have that kind of faith because it is an abiding, supernatural gift of God.

hmm, Now, I would like meat.
Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake;

Dealing with faith..."Sure, Everybody is given faith and we must exercise it."

You know where I'm going with this statement, play along. How would you all respond?

Originally Posted by White Knight

hmm, Now, I would like meat.
Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake;

Dealing with faith..."Sure, Everybody is given faith and we must exercise it."

You know where I'm going with this statement, play along. How would you all respond?

Zach:

Philippians is addressed to the saints in Philippi, not the world in general or even those who might hear the gospel. So when Paul says that "to you it has been granted" to believe we certainly have no warrant from the text or the letter (personal and particular as it is) to say this is true of every person.

Furthermore if we did say that everybody is given faith we would also have to say, to be consistent, that everyone is given suffering for His sake, which is demonstrably false.

...I used the quote in respect to thank Rev Bruce for responding...
Deserved your first paragraph answer.
I was hoping the responses I got from the question would promote more of your second paragraph. To give me something to develope.

2 Thess 3:2 might provide a little help: "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith."