Thread: The Elect

Hi guys I thought it would be about time I finally express my concerns and confusions about the "elect" Forgive me if some of this isn't explained clearly, because it has to deal with my emotions, misgivings, and stuff of that nature. This thread isn't to debate it because I'm certain that it is correct, but this does not take away my concerns rather it just fuels the panic filled fire within me.

I cannot go into very much detail but when I first fell away at a young age I explored almost anything I could get my hands on to fill a void I had. I went from Christianity to paganism over, and over, and over again. I have finally stopped with the whole paganism thing, and stuck with Christianity. I of course learned as much CRUD I could find (I call it crud because that's what it is...absolute horse ****) this didn't help me. I went to non-trinitarian to Catholicism to Lutheranism, to Episcopalian. Whatever bible doctrine you could think of I was there (most man made tho) Lets just say however that I now know why knowledge is dangerous, because with all the "information" on why there is no trinity why there is why Jesus was not the son of God and why he actually IS my looking into Communion and all the rubish I filled my head with has DESTROYED me. My faith it would seem is absolutely non-existent. I struggle a lot, and you have no idea how much I so dearly wish that the Arminian's where correct (but to my dread they aren't)

As some of you have read before I struggle with a constant nagging doubt of all my motives and all my beliefs. Motives being I struggle with the idea that I actually believe (the doubt tends to be "josh you just SAY you believe...but in your heart you really could care less) its with that ONE main doubt that I torment myself over. I am absolutely tortured by my mind, and have no comfort. So as you can guess, I am very worried about this whole elect thing.

My concerns are how am I suppose to know I am elect? if none of this is my decision, then how do I become Christian in the first place? surely I don't wake up one morning magically transformed into a Christian? with doubts of belief come doubts of election, and frankly I have no idea what to do. I need this whole doctrine of election and grace explained to me like you would a 7 year old kid, and I really need it. People always try to explain it to me but it just boggles my mind. Please anyone willing to try to calm my panic and explain this to me in the most simplest terms (yet detailed) I would be so grateful.

Don't worry about the doctrine of election. The Scriptures do not urge you to determine whether or not you are elect, but rather to trust in Christ. The question is, Are you trusting in Christ and Him alone as your Lord and Savior in this life and the next? Having believed in Jesus Christ, you will find that it was all by the sovereign distinguishing grace of God.

You have Spurgeon as your Avatar. He says the following:

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul – when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man – that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God . . . I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God.

From Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, p. 164-165.

May God grant you grace and peace as you work thru your struggles.

Originally Posted by Gomarus

Don't worry about the doctrine of election. The Scriptures do not urge you to determine whether or not you are elect, but rather to trust in Christ.

How am I suppose to trust in Christ if I am not elect? It just doesn't make sense to me

Josh, Jim's counsel (which you quoted) was spot on. Election isn't something you consider first; it's something which comes later in your mind. Election should only serve as an encouragement; never as a discouragement. The fact that you believe and cleave to Christ means that you are elect. Election serves to comfort you in your belief, assuring you that you were chosen to this from before the foundation of the world and can never fall away.

Why do you need that kind of knowledge before you act?

Assuming a "normal" childhood here, did you ask mom or dad if you were natural or adopted before you believed in their love? As a child, perhaps most of us just start out life accepting "the way things are." But some kids may think, "I'm in this family by choice--my choice."

What if, after you had believed in their love for a long time, you discovered that some children were adopted by their parents? Would you start wondering if your parents were "really" your parents? Would you start to question their love? Would you say, "Unless I know my origins, I cannot really love these people"?

What if, after all this angst, the DNA test reveals they really are your natural parents. Was the stress worth it? Was it worth it to question their truthfulness? You felt their love, saw it in all the evidence... Were your demands actually that reasonable?

What if you can't ask them, and so you take the DNA test, and find out you were adopted? What difference does it make? They probably would have told you if they could have, if you'd asked them. They didn't want you to grow up feeling "different" from the other children in the house.

In any case, you had no choice in the matter, adoption was something that happened to you, just as a birth into the family would have been. Before you knew about adoption, the possibility was unknown. You could not have conceived of it. You only knew that this was your home, you had these caregivers, these parents, and you felt a natural compulsion to honor them.

*********************

The issue for us in election is: we know some other facts. We know that we were utterly unlovable. That is, there was nothing whatsoever intrinsically attractive or nice about us in our sinful, cursed estate. We were wretched, poor, blind, pitiful, naked--and we hated God with a cold, stark hate.

Babies? They are like little seedlings or little baby asps, that without a change to their DNA, are already toxic nightshade from the root to leaf, from nose to tail. It's their nature unless/until God implants a seed of faith in them.

We know that we could not love God without his change to our nature. We could not even understand his words, or his kindness. We only heard what we wanted or were capable of--rumblings of his wrath, mutterings of his mind.

While all our hearts and all our songs
Join to admire the feast,
Each of us cry, with thankful tongues,
"Lord, why was I a guest?

Why was I made to hear thy voice,
And enter while there's room?
While thousands make a wretched choice,
And rather starve than come?

'Twas the same love that spread the feast
That sweetly drew us in;
Else we had still refused to taste,
And perished in our sin.

Instead of asking, "am I elect?" as if that question is relevant to your pursuit, you need to ask "do I believe?"

If you believe, then you can have confidence in the answer to the other question, because belief is impossible unless election precedes it. But if you refuse to believe, because you do not have access to God's "election database," then that could be a sign that your name isn't there.

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

Why do you need that kind of knowledge before you act?

I guess I would feel that I want that knowledge because...I mean lets be honest...whats the benefit of pursuing something you wont ever have?

Instead of asking, "am I elect?" as if that question is relevant to your pursuit, you need to ask "do I believe?".

I realize that I should not be doing that, and I am pretty sure I believe but like I said I am constantly troubled by doubts so I struggle with knowing if I believe or not...but then I also heard somewhere that if I did not believe...then I wouldn't be so troubled by the idea that I DONT believe (is that true?)

Brother, may I suggest that rather than trying to pursue the knowledge of your election that you take a few days and fast seeking the Lord in prayer for your assurance of salvation? Seek him with diligence by brother. Flee to the cross with reckless abandon. Do not yield in this pursuit and do not be dissuaded from this pursuit by the pursuit of the collection of academic knowledge.

Joshua,
I tend to think that a certain amount of concern and doubt can indeed be an indicator that you do, in fact, believe--and your own sins and doubts disturb you because you realize your faith should be stronger. So, look away from yourself to Christ, and like Peter walk with him back to the boat.

It was a major concern of the Reformation, and Calvin in particular, to help folks with assurance. We CAN be assured that Christ loves us; that's what 1John treats in part. If you are truthfully seeking for God, it is a sign that he has sought for you, and calls to you. We aren't infallible, but we can know assuredly God loves us--it is a product of our faith. When we are absorbed in Christ, its hard to sin deeply, and so that obstacle is submerged for a time. It will likely pop up again and again, but his tide of affection is coming in, and raising us up. It is not ebbing for his dear children.

Job--now he may have thought it had gone out for good. But even so, he also discovered in time that it had not.

Take heart. Trust. Obey. God gives grace to the humble. The bruised reed he will not break. The smoking flax he will not snuff out.

You will not get an answer to the question "am I elect?" any other way than by believing in the One he has sent. You will not be comforted by the knowledge that He loved you first, if you will not love Him (by believing His protestation of love) in return. Then you will discover it is "returned love." You will find rest for your soul when you rest in His love.

Originally Posted by LawrenceU

Brother, may I suggest that rather than trying to pursue the knowledge of your election that you take a few days and fast seeking the Lord in prayer for your assurance of salvation? Seek him with diligence by brother. Flee to the cross with reckless abandon. Do not yield in this pursuit and do not be dissuaded from this pursuit by the pursuit of the collection of academic knowledge.

I'm not very sure how to do that.

Here's what I would suggest:

Select a time to start. Fast during this time. Wake early. Spend the time in prayer focusing upon God's glory, your sin, and your need for salvation. Continue in this light. Pray until you can pray no longer. Then spend time in the Scriptures, I would suggest the epistle to the Romans. Read until you come to a place that brings either conviction or joy. Pray in response to your reading.

There is no formula. Just spend time seeking God. It is a personal thing. The Holy Spirit will guide you and work on your behalf.

BTW, you will be doing something that is a part and parcel of the Puritan / Reformed / Particular Baptist history.

Also, this is not an exercise in earning salvation or trying to get God's attention. Fasting and prayer should be a part of every Christians personal practice. The reason I suggest this is that assurance comes from God and unrelenting faith in Him, his word, and its promise. That will not come from seeking assurance in election. It will only come as you come to know the Elector and his word. Fasting and Prayer is a discipline that can greatly aid that knowledge.

Originally Posted by LawrenceU

Here's what I would suggest:

Select a time to start. Fast during this time. Wake early. Spend the time in prayer focusing upon God's glory, your sin, and your need for salvation. Continue in this light. Pray until you can pray no longer. Then spend time in the Scriptures, I would suggest the epistle to the Romans. Read until you come to a place that brings either conviction or joy. Pray in response to your reading.

There is no formula. Just spend time seeking God. It is a personal thing. The Holy Spirit will guide you and work on your behalf.

BTW, you will be doing something that is a part and parcel of the Puritan / Reformed / Particular Baptist history.

Ok I will try that. I have never prayed longer than 5 minutes or something like that.....it will be interesting to see how the "pray till you can't pray no longer" thing will work out.

-----Added 8/26/2009 at 01:54:40 EST-----

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

Joshua,
I tend to think that a certain amount of concern and doubt can indeed be an indicator that you do, in fact, believe--and your own sins and doubts disturb you because you realize your faith should be stronger. So, look away from yourself to Christ, and like Peter walk with him back to the boat.

It was a major concern of the Reformation, and Calvin in particular, to help folks with assurance. We CAN be assured that Christ loves us; that's what 1John treats in part. If you are truthfully seeking for God, it is a sign that he has sought for you, and calls to you. We aren't infallible, but we can know assuredly God loves us--it is a product of our faith. When we are absorbed in Christ, its hard to sin deeply, and so that obstacle is submerged for a time. It will likely pop up again and again, but his tide of affection is coming in, and raising us up. It is not ebbing for his dear children.

Job--now he may have thought it had gone out for good. But even so, he also discovered in time that it had not.

Take heart. Trust. Obey. God gives grace to the humble. The bruised reed he will not break. The smoking flax he will not snuff out.

Thank you very much for these words. They brought a bit of joy to me...I kind of feeling of hope I guess you could say I have spent years always wanting to come back to Christ...I would come back then fall away then feel a strange urge to come back then fall away. I'm pretty sure God has been calling me for a while.

Glad for you, Joshua.

Sin will keep you from God, no question. And living with it, not using God's means of grace for dealing with it, and fortifying yourself against it--this is a recipe for apostasy.

And 1John deals with reality too: "They went out from us [never to return] because they weren't (really) of us [in the first place]." So, they never feel God's calling them back, or never respond to it--showing they weren't his to begin with.

So, again the answer is to return, to repent, to cry out to God, "Lord, I believe! Help thou my unbelief." And know that he is faithful to his Word.

You are not alone in this. Many painful believers have had to deal both with sin-driven separation, and with bleak melancholy. The answer is always to hope in the Lord, and cling to the cross; to read the Bible, pray, and worship the Lord with his people, not forsaking the assembly.

Jesus promised to be there at worship. So, let us go to meet him. His strength is made perfect in weakness. So acknowledge it, and realize he knows it already and long ago made provision for you. Come and dine.

Originally Posted by LawrenceU

Here's what I would suggest:

Select a time to start. Fast during this time. Wake early. Spend the time in prayer focusing upon God's glory, your sin, and your need for salvation. Continue in this light. Pray until you can pray no longer. Then spend time in the Scriptures, I would suggest the epistle to the Romans. Read until you come to a place that brings either conviction or joy. Pray in response to your reading.

There is no formula. Just spend time seeking God. It is a personal thing. The Holy Spirit will guide you and work on your behalf.

BTW, you will be doing something that is a part and parcel of the Puritan / Reformed / Particular Baptist history.

Also, this is not an exercise in earning salvation or trying to get God's attention. Fasting and prayer should be a part of every Christians personal practice. The reason I suggest this is that assurance comes from God and unrelenting faith in Him, his word, and its promise. That will not come from seeking assurance in election. It will only come as you come to know the Elector and his word. Fasting and Prayer is a discipline that can greatly aid that knowledge.

Hey I plan on doing this today (sunday) umm...well why its going to happen today is 1 because of going back to school last week (so cant spend the day doing that) and I had conflicting interests and was boggling my mind and such, so yesterday I didn't do it (not that I could...I spent the day helping a friend move into a new house) so I want to do this today! and why I don't wait for next week is because God doesn't promise another day on this earth...so I'm not going to risk 5 days hoping for that what I am not promised..is given to me...its kinda like gambling with my life. Now here is my problem. I will have to stay home from Church if I want to concentrate....my dad will WANT to know why, but I am sure there is something in the bible about like..not going around and saying "hey I'm fasting" and such...soo....would it be wrong...if my dad doesn't accept the "I just need to do something very important all day" excuse...is it ok to tell him what I plan to do? Also...am I aloud to drink water?