Thread: Are the confessions authoritative and binding?

Do you believe the confessions you subscribe to are authoritative and binding?

I believe the westminster confession of faith is the best summary I have read of the message of the scriptures and I agree with it. However I believe only the actual scriptures are binding as only they are inspired by God and the westminster standards serves only as a convienient summary for quick reference, teaching and doctrinal unity.

So, would you want to run me out of town for saying that the scriptures are the only thing that binds my conscience yet I agree that the westminster confession of faith is the best attempt at an explaination of them, yet infinitely subordinate to them?

Originally Posted by DD2009

So, would you want to run me out of town for saying that the scriptures are the only thing that binds my conscience yet I agree that the westminster confession of faith is the best attempt at an explaination of them, yet infinitely subordinate to them?

I don't know about running you out of town, but I think you could do with a run somewhere. How is your faith not binding on your conscience? If you believe Scripture teaches A then you are bound to A even though A is not the precise wording of Scripture. Take your statement, "the scriptures are the only thing that binds my conscience;" this is contradictory because it is obvious that your extra-scriptural statement also binds your conscience.

Originally Posted by armourbearer

I don't know about running you out of town, but I think you could do with a run somewhere. How is your faith not binding on your conscience? If you believe Scripture teaches A then you are bound to A even though A is not the precise wording of Scripture. Take your statement, "the scriptures are the only thing that binds my conscience;" this is contradictory because it is obvious that your extra-scriptural statement also binds your conscience.

I was referring to an authority, which for me is the bible. I believe it is the infallible word of God. The words that come out of me are simply the feelings of my heart. "out of the heart the mouth speaks"

I agree with the confession, but I cannot bring myself to say that it binds me because it must always be rechecked against the word of God for accuracy so it is possible that it is wrong because it is not inspired but is the work of men.

I tend to check about everything I am told against scripture anymore and if it doesn't line up I shed it. I'm not saying the confession doesn't line up. I'm just saying I will always recheck it to see if I missed something because I only really trust scripture in regards to the truth.

Originally Posted by DD2009

Originally Posted by armourbearer

I don't know about running you out of town, but I think you could do with a run somewhere. How is your faith not binding on your conscience? If you believe Scripture teaches A then you are bound to A even though A is not the precise wording of Scripture. Take your statement, "the scriptures are the only thing that binds my conscience;" this is contradictory because it is obvious that your extra-scriptural statement also binds your conscience.

I was referring to an authority, which for me is the bible. I believe it is the infallible word of God. The words that come out of me are simply the feelings of my heart. "out of the heart the mouth speaks"

I agree with the confession, but I cannot bring myself to say that it binds me because it must always be rechecked against the word of God for accuracy so it is possible that it is wrong because it is not inspired but is the work of men.

I tend to check about everything I am told against scripture anymore and if it doesn't line up I shed it. I'm not saying the confession doesn't line up. I'm just saying I will always recheck it to see if I missed something because I only really trust scripture in regards to the truth.

Does your statement, "I believe it is the infallible word of God," have authority over you?

Originally Posted by KMK

Does your statement, "I believe it is the infallible word of God," have authority over you?

No. That's just the words I used to try and communicate how I feel about the bible. I don't believe I can create my own authority and then bind myself to it.

I believe the bible is the authoritative word of God. The Westminster Confession is just an interpretation of the bible that I feel is the best one I have read, but that doesn't mean I look to it for truth. I look to the bible for truth and use the westminster confession for bible study ideas because I agree with it.

Is this a normal view?

Originally Posted by DD2009

Originally Posted by KMK

Does your statement, "I believe it is the infallible word of God," have authority over you?

No. That's just the words I used to try and communicate how I feel about the bible. I don't believe I can create my own authority and then bind myself to it.

I believe the bible is the authoritative word of God. The Westminster Confession is just an interpretation of the bible that I feel is the best one I have read, but that doesn't mean I look to it for truth. I look to the bible for truth and use the westminster confession for bible study ideas because I agree with it.

Is this a normal view?

You confess, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God." Then you say, "I look to the Bible for truth, not the confession." Your confession, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God", is guiding your faith and practice in that you look to the Bible for truth. Therefore, your confession, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God" does indeed have authority over you.

Originally Posted by DD2009

I was referring to an authority, which for me is the bible. I believe it is the infallible word of God. The words that come out of me are simply the feelings of my heart.

Are you bound to live by these "feelings of your heart?" Are they such that God will hold you to account for what you do in response to these "feelings?" If so, then they carry weight with you. If not, they're dung.

Originally Posted by KMK

You confess, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God." Then you say, "I look to the Bible for truth, not the confession." Your confession, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God", is guiding your faith and practice in that you look to the Bible for truth. Therefore, your confession, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God" does indeed have authority over you.

Interesting.

It seems you are saying that the Westminster Confession is a written confession of my thoughts and that would be true it seems, yet I do not trust it the way I trust the bible. Because the bible molds my thoughts the confession does not. I scrutinize it against scripture to see if it is true, I do not learn from it and look to it for truth. I check it to make sure it is a accurate depiction of what I believe scripture says, and it is.

I feel my conscience is bound by the bible because I fundamentaly believe it is the authoritative word of God not just because I affirmed that in speech and bound myself to my statement, but because that is what compells me to act because I believe it is true.

Does any church teach that a confession is authoritative like the bible is?

-----Added 9/30/2009 at 02:22:03 EST-----

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Originally Posted by DD2009

I was referring to an authority, which for me is the bible. I believe it is the infallible word of God. The words that come out of me are simply the feelings of my heart.

Are you bound to live by these "feelings of your heart?" Are they such that God will hold you to account for what you do in response to these "feelings?" If so, then they carry weight with you. If not, they're dung.

That is interesting as well. I guess I can only describe it as a belief. I honestly believe the bible is true because it is from God. So I check everything else against it for accuracy.

Curently I am at a place where if one asks me if my authority is the Westminster confesion of faith I woud say, "No my authority is the bible. The westminster confession of faith is the closest interpretation of the bible that I agree with".

Does that sound incorrect?

By the way, I'm newly reformed. I just joined the PCA with my family this year.

Originally Posted by DD2009

Do you believe the confessions you subscribe to are authoritative and binding?

......

They are authoritative insofar as you can be bound by human authority.

They are binding upon your compliance insofar as you have submitted yourself to the same. They ought not be binding upon your conscience in any absolute sense in the way that the Word of God must be.

Originally Posted by rbcbob

Originally Posted by DD2009

Do you believe the confessions you subscribe to are authoritative and binding?

......

They are authoritative insofar as you can be bound by human authority.

They are binding upon your compliance insofar as you have submitted yourself to the same. They ought not be binding upon your conscience in any absolute sense in the way that the Word of God must be.

That's a good point. Human authority. It is different than the Divine Authority of the Word of God. That might be the key.

I do maintain that the Westminster Confession is the best interpretation I've read and I wouldn't promote any teaching that was outside of those standards, given the proper scriptural screening discernment and prayer, so it does seem that I use them as guidelines perhaps to flag if something may be unscriptural.

Originally Posted by DD2009

Originally Posted by rbcbob

Originally Posted by DD2009

Do you believe the confessions you subscribe to are authoritative and binding?

......

They are authoritative insofar as you can be bound by human authority.

They are binding upon your compliance insofar as you have submitted yourself to the same. They ought not be binding upon your conscience in any absolute sense in the way that the Word of God must be.

That's a good point. Human authority. It is different than the Divine Authority of the Word of God. That might be the key.

I do maintain that the Westminster Confession is the best interpretation I've read and I wouldn't promote any teaching that was outside of those standards, given the proper scriptural screening discernment and prayer, so it does seem that I use them as guidelines perhaps to flag if something may be unscriptural.

Keep in mind that I am a Baptist and as such I am not qualified to address any secondary ecclesiastical standards to which you have submitted. But I am confident that my paedobaptist brethren here would agree that your heart allegiance is supremely owed to the Lord and His Word.

Originally Posted by DD2009

Originally Posted by KMK

You confess, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God." Then you say, "I look to the Bible for truth, not the confession." Your confession, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God", is guiding your faith and practice in that you look to the Bible for truth. Therefore, your confession, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God" does indeed have authority over you.

Interesting.

It seems you are saying that the Westminster Confession is a written confession of my thoughts and that would be true it seems, yet I do not trust it the way I trust the bible. Because the bible molds my thoughts the confession does not. I scrutinize it against scripture to see if it is true, I do not learn from it and look to it for truth. I check it to make sure it is a accurate depiction of what I believe scripture says, and it is.

I feel my conscience is bound by the bible because I fundamentaly believe it is the authoritative word of God not just because I affirmed that in speech and bound myself to my statement, but because that is what compells me to act because I believe it is true.

Does any church teach that a confession is authoritative like the bible is?

Probably, but not Reformed churches:

London Baptist Confession 1:1 The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience...

Your confession, "I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God" has authority over you in that you look only to the Bible for truth. Your confession is affecting your behavior. What if your confession was, "I don't believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God"? Would you still look to the Bible alone for truth? Of course not. Therefore your own confession is guiding your behavior and therefore has authority over you.

I think your concern is not whether your own confession should have authority over you, but whether someone else's confession should have authority over you. But, what if your confession and the Reformed confession are identical? Or what if the Reformed confession is even better than your own?

I think the reason it appears to many of the newly reformed that we give the same honor to the confessions as we do the Bible is because the Reformed confessions have become our own confessions. We have taken ownership of them, not because we "believe the westminster confession of faith is the best summary I have read of the message of the scriptures", as you say, but because they are identical to our own individual confessions, and in most cases even better.

I am at the point now that I can say, "The LBC is my confession." Not, simply "a confession written by unknown men hundreds of years ago that I agree with", but my very own confession.

Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by KMK

Probably, but not Reformed churches:

Good. I was starting to worry. I see some people chastised for being "unconfessional" on the internet the same way most Christians would point out something that is unscriptural.

I am at the point now that I can say, "The LBC is my confession." Not, simply "a confession written by unknown men hundreds of years ago that I agree with", but my very own confession.

Does that make sense?

That does make sense. Thank you.

[quote=DD2009;695275]

Originally Posted by KMK

Good. I was starting to worry. I see some people chastised for being "unconfessional" on the internet the same way most Christians would point out something that is unscriptural.

Everybody is confessional to one degree or another. You said, "I believe the Bible is the Word of God." That is a confessional statement. I imagine you would hold to many other confessional statements too. Nobody is truly a "me and my Bible" person. I will prove it. Answer for yourself, "What is the Bible?" and then carefully consider your answer. I think you will find a good deal of confessionalism in yourself.

To answer your broader question, most Reformed subscribe to a confession (some more strictly than others) because we believe that it contains the system of doctrine taught by the Scriptures. There is no need to reinvent the wheel everytime you need a loaf of bread. You just get in your car and go to the store. Same thing with confessionalism. We WCF types do not feel the need to re-prove from the Bible every theological point. We appeal to our settled confession. For us it is authoritative, though its authority is derived from and subject to the Scriptures. If you will read through the Confessions, they early on admit that councils can err (including the Westminster Assembly), so we do hold the Scriptures up first. Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by kevin.carroll

Everybody is confessional to one degree or another. You said, "I believe the Bible is the Word of God." That is a confessional statement. I imagine you would hold to many other confessional statements too. Nobody is truly a "me and my Bible" person. I will prove it. Answer for yourself, "What is the Bible?" and then carefully consider your answer. I think you will find a good deal of confessionalism in yourself.

To answer your broader question, most Reformed subscribe to a confession (some more strictly than others) because we believe that it contains the system of doctrine taught by the Scriptures. There is no need to reinvent the wheel everytime you need a loaf of bread. You just get in your car and go to the store. Same thing with confessionalism. We WCF types do not feel the need to re-prove from the Bible every theological point. We appeal to our settled confession. For us it is authoritative, though its authority is derived from and subject to the Scriptures. If you will read through the Confessions, they early on admit that councils can err (including the Westminster Assembly), so we do hold the Scriptures up first. Hope that helps.

I agree with you here. I am confessional as I accept the Westminster Confession as the interpretation of scripture I believe is the closest to the truth.

I just want to know where the line is drawn in regards to the depth of its authoitativeness. I am satisfied with the teaching that it is a human authority and the bible is a divine authority. That makes perfect sense to me and is a good way to explain the way I have felt about it. Especially when I try to explain it to non -confessional Baptists that I know who have an instant revulsion to confessions. I was raised Southern Baptist, so it comes up.

Originally Posted by DD2009

I just want to know where the line is drawn in regards to the depth of its authoitativeness. I am satisfied with the teaching that it is a human authority and the bible is a divine authority. That makes perfect sense to me and is a good way to explain the way I have felt about it. Especially when I try to explain it to non -confessional Baptists that I know who have an instant revulsion to confessions. I was raised Southern Baptist, so it comes up.

Same thing. When you confession averse Baptist friends recoil in horror at your confession, ask them what God is. Ask them what Jesus is.

The minute they use the word "Trinity" or begin to talk about Jesus as having two natures in one person, the discussion is over. They are confessional and you can go have a pipe and a beer. Unless, of course, you continue to be a Baptist!

Originally Posted by kevin.carroll

Originally Posted by DD2009

I just want to know where the line is drawn in regards to the depth of its authoitativeness. I am satisfied with the teaching that it is a human authority and the bible is a divine authority. That makes perfect sense to me and is a good way to explain the way I have felt about it. Especially when I try to explain it to non -confessional Baptists that I know who have an instant revulsion to confessions. I was raised Southern Baptist, so it comes up.

Same thing. When you confession averse Baptist friends recoil in horror at your confession, ask them what God is. Ask them what Jesus is.

The minute they use the word "Trinity" or begin to talk about Jesus as having two natures in one person, the discussion is over. They are confessional and you can go have a pipe and a beer. Unless, of course, you continue to be a Baptist!

Thanks.

Originally Posted by DD2009

That is interesting as well. I guess I can only describe it as a belief. I honestly believe the bible is true because it is from God. So I check everything else against it for accuracy.

Curently I am at a place where if one asks me if my authority is the Westminster confesion of faith I woud say, "No my authority is the bible. The westminster confession of faith is the closest interpretation of the bible that I agree with".

Does that sound incorrect?

Yes, that is correct insofar as you are making the Bible your ultimate authority. I don't think it is possible to say that what is believed about the Bible has no authority. I think, though, judging from your later posts on this thread, that you have come to see the importance of ascribing a subordinate and limited authority to the confession of faith.