1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. - NASB

So....... Does this cause anyone else to question reformed views, or is just me?

I know that 2 Peter 3:9 can easily be interpreted to be referring to the church, but this one seems clearly to be saying God sincerely "will have all men to be saved" and that Christ Jesus "gave Himself as a ransom for all"...?

And what about the "two wills of God" theory (I first heard it from Azurdia and Piper...), where did this come from and what do you all make of that?

Thanks for your help.

Adam

__________________
Adam Schaefers
Mariners Reformed Baptist Church (Attending regularly, but not yet a member...)
Coos Bay, OR

www.YoAdam.com

The two-wills thing has been a matter of contentious debate on the PB. I would encourage you to search for those threads. In them, you will find more than one way to understand this matter without tossing out a high view of God and embracing Arminian nonsense. I'll leave it to your study to determine which side of the PB debates offers the more cogent case.

One such thread is here (but I know there are several more -- just can't think of where they are):

Middle-Knowledge Article, Wherein Also is Discussed Counterfactual Desires in God

Don't let the name fool you. The thread begins one way, but develops into the very discussion you are seeking.

__________________
Clark Brooking
Pastor
Living Hope Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Clarksville, MD

Adam,

We can draw from the context of the passage that Paul is speaking of all kinds of men. Thus, when He says that God "will have all men" to be saved, he's referring to all kinds of men (Kings, those who are in authority, etc.). So, no, it doesn't shake my faith in the least. It only confirms it all the more.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Thanks chbrooking, I will check out the discussion you mentioned.

Joshua,

Could that be adding meaning in to the scripture that is not there? Why didn't God inspire the word "kinds" if God really meant it to mean "all kinds"?

Thanks,

Adam

Adam,

I am not sure that a "two wills debate" is necessary to understand the passage. Notice that verse 4 comes in the context of verse 1.

God is a Savior - in fact the Savior, the only Savior of people. God desires that people come to “a knowledge of the truth,” that is, an understanding of the gospel. This is a truth that Paul described in the faithful saying in 1 Tim. 1:15, that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” Paul is encouraging the Ephesians, and you today, to have a universal scope for the gospel.

The Gospel is for all sorts of people – rich people, poor people, subjects, rulers, Jews, Greeks, even Americans. There is no sort of people for whom the gospel does not solve the problem of man’s alienation from God. The Gospel is God’s solution for the entire world.

Does this mean all men are saved? Are you afraid of verse 4? Did Paul misspeak? No! You may have misheard, but he did not misspeak. Verse four speaks of the universal appeal and access to the gospel, the “knowledge of the truth.” The Gospel is for people whoever they are and wherever they are, but not for everyone without exception. Remember the context: Paul has asked Timothy to pray for “all people.” Does that mean Timothy is supposed to know every single person alive? Of course not. We would never interpret "all" in that sense. But why then would we interpret "all" in the sense of "every single person without exception" when it is used in the very next sentence? That is why Paul gives examples of what kind of people Timothy is to pray for - "kings, and all who are in high positions."

This is often the way the Bible speaks, using “all” and then giving examples. We do the same thing, don’t we? We can speak of America as "a land of opportunity for everyone." Yet it is obvious that not that every single person in America has opportunity The reality is that no matter who you are, where you come from, America is a place of opportunity. Don’t need a certain name, or background to have opportunity, like in other places.

It is also important to see the following verses as giving context to verse 4. In the following verses, Paul gives a very particular message of salvation. He says that there is only one God, and that fact binds all of us (Jews, Greeks, Romans, etc.) together. There is only God to be preached and believed, no matter where you live, no matter what you do. But more than that, there is only one Mediator - Christ Jesus. Only one Person who can Mediate between God and man. The Church cannot restrict the scope of gospel, pick what kind of people to pray for or want to see saved, it cannot broaden saving “knowledge of truth” God has set down in His Word. God is in completely control of His gospel. At the same time, to bring the wrong gospel to more people is to bring a true gospel to no people.

__________________
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

No.
Because He didn't want to do it that way. Instead He was pleased to have Paul write it in such a way so that the context would provide the exegetical conclusion of what Fred has mentioned above (i.e. that Paul is speaking here of all kinds of men).