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08-10-2008, 04:45 PM
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I am currently reading The Death of Death, and I just want to know if John Owen's contemporary authors are equally hard to read, or if anyone is as hard to read as he is, or what. Opinions would be appreciated.
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08-10-2008, 05:00 PM
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Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. 
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08-10-2008, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua  Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. | Would you say he's the most difficult Reformed author to read? If not, who else?
I want to know what kind of hope I have for the future.  |
08-10-2008, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by packabacka Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. | Would you say he's the most difficult Reformed author to read? If not, who else?
I want to know what kind of hope I have for the future. | Probably not, though at this moment, I can't think of some others. If you do a search for "John Owen" here on the PB, I think there are some threads that may deal with this. It seems I remember some others mentioning a few people who may be more difficult, but not many.
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08-10-2008, 05:40 PM
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Several men acquainted with Dr. Owen's works have acknowledged the difficulty in reading them. Some have suggested that it is quite helpful to read Owen out loud. Apparently it works wonders.
edit::
I am not sure if this introduction is in the copy you are reading, but I think it is helpful.
(From the introductory essay to The Death of Death by J.I. Packer) Quote: |
Finally, a word about the style of this work. There is no denying that Owen is heavy and hard to read. This is not so much due to obscure arrangement as to two other factors. The first is his lumbering literary gait. “Owen travels through it (his subject) with the elephant’s grace and solid step, if sometimes also with his ungainly motion.” says Thomson. That puts it kindly. Much of Owen’s prose reads like a roughly-dashed-off translation of a piece of thinking done in Ciceronian Latin. It has, no doubt, a certain clumsy dignity; so has Stonehenge; but it is trying to the reader to have to go over sentences two or three times to see their meaning, and this necessity makes it much harder to follow an argument. The present writer, however, has found that the hard places in Owen usually come out as soon as one reads them aloud. The second obscuring factor is Owen’s austerity as an expositor. He has a lordly disdain for broad introductions which ease the mind gently into a subject, and for comprehensive summaries which gather up scattered points into a small space. He obviously carries the whole of his design in his head, and expects his readers to do the same. Nor are his chapter divisions reliable pointers to the structure of his discourse, for though a change of subject is usually marked by a chapter division, Owen often starts a new chapter where there is no break in the thought at all. Nor is he concerned about literary proportions; the space given to a topic is determined by its intrinsic complexity rather than its relative importance, and the reader is left to work out what is basic and what is secondary by noting how things link together. The reader will probably find it helpful to use a pencil and paper in his study of the book and jot down the progress of the exposition; and it is hoped that the subjoined Analysis will also be of service in helping him keep his bearings.
| As to your question, no - not all the Puritans are as difficult to read. Not nearly so.
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08-10-2008, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. | 
It's his Latin thinking that's the problem.
If you do not know Latin the Latinum podcast can help with that.
They link to Adler's books at Google Books on Latin. And you don't need to know that much Latin to understand Owen better. Many find that only reading the AV while reading Owen helps their understanding. I think this is due to the conjugated English verbs and the distinction between the 2nd pers. sing. and 2nd pers. plur. pronouns and the overall structure of the English used.
Reading Owen out loud is also helpful. I have also found the following audio series to be helpful: SermonAudio.com - The Death of Death 1/33 OWEN. Read your section from Owen and then throughout the day listen to that section.
Owen is generally considered to be the most difficult of all the Reformed writers. I think it was Spurgeon who said that if you master Owen you will be a consummate theologian indeed.
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08-10-2008, 05:50 PM
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“Owen on the whole is difficult to read,” Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones Preaching and Preachers, p. 175.
Joel Beeke & Randall J. Pederson, Meet the Puritans: Quote: |
For those who have difficulty reading Owen, we recommend R. J. K. Law’s abridged simplifications of Communion with God (1991), Apostasy from the Gospel (1992), The Glory of Christ (1994), and The Holy Spirit (1998), all published by the Banner of Truth Trust. Unabridged paperbacks of the last two titles, with helpful introductions by Sinclair Ferguson, were published in 2004 by Christian Focus.
| I think Owen is among the most challenging Puritans to read (and rewarding), while Thomas Watson is among the easiest to read (and rewarding). Reading the Puritans Links and Downloads Manager - Educational Links - Reading Difficult Books -- Steven Dilday - The PuritanBoard
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08-10-2008, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot “Owen on the whole is difficult to read,” Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones Preaching and Preachers, p. 175.
Joel Beeke & Randall J. Pederson, Meet the Puritans: Quote: |
For those who have difficulty reading Owen, we recommend R. J. K. Law’s abridged simplifications of Communion with God (1991), Apostasy from the Gospel (1992), The Glory of Christ (1994), and The Holy Spirit (1998), all published by the Banner of Truth Trust. Unabridged paperbacks of the last two titles, with helpful introductions by Sinclair Ferguson, were published in 2004 by Christian Focus.
| I think Owen is among the most challenging Puritans to read (and rewarding), while Thomas Watson is among the easiest to read (and rewarding). Reading the Puritans Links and Downloads Manager - Educational Links - Reading Difficult Books -- Steven Dilday - The PuritanBoard | I read Law's The Glory of Christ and The Holy Spirit. The Glory of Christ is very readable. The problem with his Holy Spirit is what's left out. I know TGOC leaves out a lot as well, but it read as if it was just one volume. I found myself always wanting to turn to one of the sections removed from The Holy Spirit. So I had his Pneumatologia printed locally. But Law's abridgements are both good introductions to Owen's larger works and make them easier to understand overall.
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08-10-2008, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by packabacka Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. | Would you say he's the most difficult Reformed author to read? If not, who else?
I want to know what kind of hope I have for the future. | Others are right in saying that, the more you read of him, the easier it will become. As I read him, I often first read the table of contents, so I can see where he's going. Then, as I go to the first chapter, I look at his numbered type of outline throughout the paragraphs first, for that divides up his main thoughts. There is often an italicized sentence or two there, next to the numbers and letters, that explains his main point of those upcoming paragraphs. Sometimes, I'll even keep paper and pen next to me to write down those italicized sentences and the actual outline itself. I often take notes as I read anyway, for I personally find that it slows my brain down, and I tend to digest the material better that way too. Also, he often says some interesting thoughts that I want to remember, and I want to reference the page number in some way so I can go back to it later perhaps. And sometimes, I have my own personal thoughts of application that come to mind based on what he has said, and I jot those down as well.
So, basically, I don't read these sorts of books like I read the newspaper, or many books of today. I find it more rewarding and beneficial to take a slower approach.
And, to respond to your question here, I personally find Jonathan Edwards to be equal if not more challenging than Owen. He tends to be extremely philisophical to me, and lays out his entire argument in a very abstract form, proving his case abstractly before he even gets to the realistic way of application that he intended all along.
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08-10-2008, 07:56 PM
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Owen can be tough sometimes, but if you really want a challenge, read a few pages of Stephen Charnock.  
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08-10-2008, 08:56 PM
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...or you could wait for the graphic novel of The Death of Death.  | | The Following User Says Thank You to bookslover For This Useful Post: | |
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Originally Posted by Jeff_Bartel Owen can be tough sometimes, but if you really want a challenge, read a few pages of Stephen Charnock. | And some of the writings of B. B. Warfield rank right up there with Owen and Charnock in level of difficulty.  |
08-10-2008, 11:36 PM
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Actually, I've gotten a pretty good grasp of Owen. I'm not immediately understanding all that he writes, but it's not really difficult anymore. Of course, I'll bet this has occurred because I'm not reading the thick stuff anymore.
B.B. Warfield is difficult too? Hmm...
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08-10-2008, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by packabacka Actually, I've gotten a pretty good grasp of Owen. I'm not immediately understanding all that he writes, but it's not really difficult anymore. Of course, I'll bet this has occurred because I'm not reading the thick stuff anymore.
B.B. Warfield is difficult too? Hmm... |
Warfield had a propensity for long sentences with many commas, semi-colons, (parenthetical phrases), and the occassional sesquipedalian word!
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08-11-2008, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon Quote:
Originally Posted by packabacka Actually, I've gotten a pretty good grasp of Owen. I'm not immediately understanding all that he writes, but it's not really difficult anymore. Of course, I'll bet this has occurred because I'm not reading the thick stuff anymore.
B.B. Warfield is difficult too? Hmm... |
Warfield had a propensity for long sentences with many commas, semi-colons, (parenthetical phrases), and the occassional sesquipedalian word! | You mean like that one? 
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My own opinion is that Van Til is harder than Owen...some of Van Til's stuff would have greatly benefitted from an editor.
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08-11-2008, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by moral necessity Quote:
Originally Posted by packabacka Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. | Would you say he's the most difficult Reformed author to read? If not, who else?
I want to know what kind of hope I have for the future. | Others are right in saying that, the more you read of him, the easier it will become. As I read him, I often first read the table of contents, so I can see where he's going. Then, as I go to the first chapter, I look at his numbered type of outline throughout the paragraphs first, for that divides up his main thoughts. There is often an italicized sentence or two there, next to the numbers and letters, that explains his main point of those upcoming paragraphs. Sometimes, I'll even keep paper and pen next to me to write down those italicized sentences and the actual outline itself. I often take notes as I read anyway, for I personally find that it slows my brain down, and I tend to digest the material better that way too. Also, he often says some interesting thoughts that I want to remember, and I want to reference the page number in some way so I can go back to it later perhaps. And sometimes, I have my own personal thoughts of application that come to mind based on what he has said, and I jot those down as well.
So, basically, I don't read these sorts of books like I read the newspaper, or many books of today. I find it more rewarding and beneficial to take a slower approach. | I agree. I like to skim through and discover his outline first and then go back and flesh out the details.
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08-11-2008, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sotzo My own opinion is that Van Til is harder than Owen...some of Van Til's stuff would have greatly benefitted from an editor. | I agree. Van Til assumed the average reader had his philosophical training. He also had a habit of equivocating on the sense of one word in the same sentence. I'd rather read Owen translated to English and then into German. Or Sanskrit. Maybe Akkadian.
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08-11-2008, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by joshua Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. | I think you're quite right in a sense on this. I was thinking about what you presented here (which I've encountered before), and think that for the most part, English as a whole was more influenced by Latin (through French) than we would normally accredit it. And thereby making it more difficult for us to follow since we don't know Latin these days, and on the whole hate the French!
When it comes to Owen's stuff, much like other folks, there are "Degrees of Oweness" so to speak. I find his sermons to be very easy to follow (much like Edwards' sermons), his devotional material easy to slightly dense to follow (i.e. "Mortification of Sin", "Spiritually Mindedness", etc.), and then his major theological works (i.e. Death of Death, The Holy Spirit, etc.) to be dense to follow. One thing that I would suggest is something that I've done now for the last few things I've read with Owen. When I go to read his stuff, I first make a large book mark with the book and chapter outline that he's going to follow printed on it (with page numbers). This is in part to help me always have a visual with me of where he's going and where I'm at in his flow of thinking (and if I can figure that out!). This also helps me know how much longer I have to go before I can get a breather!
Anyhow, in my experience, much like any machine, a well oiled and constantly in use machine is easier to use than one that's had little attention. More regular reading of Owen lends to a more regular understanding of him.
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08-11-2008, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by FenderPriest Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. | I think you're quite right in a sense on this. I was thinking about what you presented here (which I've encountered before), and think that for the most part, English as a whole was more influenced by Latin (through French) than we would normally accredit it. And thereby making it more difficult for us to follow since we don't know Latin these days, and on the whole hate the French!
When it comes to Owen's stuff, much like other folks, there are "Degrees of Oweness" so to speak. I find his sermons to be very easy to follow (much like Edwards' sermons), his devotional material easy to slightly dense to follow (i.e. "Mortification of Sin", "Spiritually Mindedness", etc.), and then his major theological works (i.e. Death of Death, The Holy Spirit, etc.) to be dense to follow. One thing that I would suggest is something that I've done now for the last few things I've read with Owen. When I go to read his stuff, I first make a large book mark with the book and chapter outline that he's going to follow printed on it (with page numbers). This is in part to help me always have a visual with me of where he's going and where I'm at in his flow of thinking (and if I can figure that out!). This also helps me know how much longer I have to go before I can get a breather!
Anyhow, in my experience, much like any machine, a well oiled and constantly in use machine is easier to use than one that's had little attention. More regular reading of Owen lends to a more regular understanding of him. |  |
08-11-2008, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by packabacka Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Dude, John Owen has to be the most readable person ever, including Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. NOT!
I think, while Owen's writing in English, he's thinking in Latin. And it comes out like that, rendering him difficult for we under-educated folk of this generation. Nonetheless, the more you read him, the easier it becomes. | Would you say he's the most difficult Reformed author to read? If not, who else? | Thomas Goodwin is worse.
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08-11-2008, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Quote:
Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon Quote:
Originally Posted by packabacka Actually, I've gotten a pretty good grasp of Owen. I'm not immediately understanding all that he writes, but it's not really difficult anymore. Of course, I'll bet this has occurred because I'm not reading the thick stuff anymore.
B.B. Warfield is difficult too? Hmm... |
Warfield had a propensity for long sentences with many commas, semi-colons, (parenthetical phrases), and the occassional sesquipedalian word! | You mean like that one? | Yup!  |
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11-13-2008, 02:51 PM
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If you can get used to reading Owen...EVERYTHING in English after...is a cake-walk...believe me.
And I don't know about his thinking in Latin, as one posted...He just had a serious grasp of the English language. A friend of mine actually said to me one day, (as I was mentioning I wanted to get a better grasp of my own language), that he highly recommends Owen, for his usage of words and grammer are impecable.
But, in the English, no one is more difficult to read, except maybe L. RON HUBBARD...lol
And do ya think you'd read his stuff anyway?
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11-13-2008, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFleshProfitethNothing If you can get used to reading Owen...EVERYTHING in English after...is a cake-walk...believe me. | Except Charnock. I cannot figure out why he's so hard to read.
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11-13-2008, 04:11 PM
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I haven't read Owen so I cannot compare his work to anyone else. Right now, I'm reading Edwards and he is somewhat difficult in that you cannot just turn page after page. One has to take the time to understand all that he is trying to convey...but he's good! Maybe some day I'll try Owen! |
11-13-2008, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by turmeric Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFleshProfitethNothing If you can get used to reading Owen...EVERYTHING in English after...is a cake-walk...believe me. | Except Charnock. I cannot figure out why he's so hard to read. | Charnock? Hmm...never heard of him...I will investigate.  |
11-13-2008, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sjonee I haven't read Owen so I cannot compare his work to anyone else. Right now, I'm reading Edwards and he is somewhat difficult in that you cannot just turn page after page. One has to take the time to understand all that he is trying to convey...but he's good! Maybe some day I'll try Owen! | OH! MY! Owen is MUST reading, are you kidding me??!!
But, seriously...you have to get yourself a copy of "A Display of Arminianism".
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11-13-2008, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFleshProfitethNothing Quote:
Originally Posted by sjonee I haven't read Owen so I cannot compare his work to anyone else. Right now, I'm reading Edwards and he is somewhat difficult in that you cannot just turn page after page. One has to take the time to understand all that he is trying to convey...but he's good! Maybe some day I'll try Owen! | OH! MY! Owen is MUST reading, are you kidding me??!!
But, seriously...you have to get yourself a copy of "A Display of Arminianism". | I'll see if I can download it onto my Kindle...usually these books are cheap on amazon! If I end up brain dead we know who do blame!  |
11-13-2008, 06:32 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: wi
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Nope, not there |
11-13-2008, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFleshProfitethNothing | Oh, man! Now I have no excuse!  |
11-13-2008, 06:53 PM
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I apologize for thinking I saw it in the CCEL website...hmm
I do know you can find free downloads of it though...just do a search, and you can probably find a PDF or other version...it's out there SOMEWHERE!
But, no! You have NO MORE excuses WOMAN! Start reading Owen! You might even start with "On Mortification of Sin in the Believer"...or "The Doctrine of the Trinity Defended" or "The Doctrine of Justification"...
PICK SOMETHING ALREADY!!  |
11-13-2008, 07:00 PM
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| | | | | The Following User Says Thank You to OPC'n For This Useful Post: | |
11-13-2008, 07:28 PM
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Useful in that it cheered me up! |
11-13-2008, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot | I am reading that right now. I think i may pick this up! I plan i reading this book more then once though so i dont miss any hidden gems
__________________
Brian E
Attending Falls OPC
Menomonee Falls, WI Quote: |
Originally Posted by Psalm 28:7 The Lord is my Strength and my shield; in Him my heart trusts, and I am helped; my heart exults, and with my song i give thanks to Him.  | |
11-13-2008, 10:04 PM
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I just started the volume with Mortification of Sin, Of Temptation, & Indwelling Sin. It has an intro by John Piper.
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John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.
Martin Luther, Table Talk
