I have often wondered what prevents so many Christians who are reformed in their doctrine to attend a church that is reformed. Is it because there is no such church in their town, or that they don't want to move to another place because of work, or that they still like many things about their church although it be unconfessional? I have seen people on this board who attend fairly liberal churches like PCUSA, United Methodist, SBC, and many other congregational baptist churches that have become removed from Reformed Orthodoxy.

Mainline Reformed Churches include those that are:
1) Confessional
2) Calvinistic (doctrines of grace, etc.)
3) Conservative (do not allow women in office, and hold to biblical inherancy)

Yet, there are many Calvinists who keep attending those so-called churches that share little with them in their thinking, and yet continue to put up with Arminianism being preached at the pulpit, or all sorts of unbiblical practices or teachings that they themselves disapprove.

I myself once attended a Wesleyan church for several years after having just become a Calvinist. It eventually got to the point that going to church was depressing to me, not only because I could not agree with much of the teachings, but also because I could not meet people who thought, practised and believed the same things that I did. It was quite a relief to join a URCNA, so much, that it felt like I had been fellowshipping with people from a different religion.

If you happen to be in a church that do not teach the things you believe, then what are you doing there? Are you trying to evangelize the members or win them to your side? That is not going to work.

Of course, there may always be a few secondary issues that you may disagree with in a Reformed Church (i.e. Exclusive Psalmody, Infant Baptism, etc.) but as for the issues that you consider to be primary, you should ensure that your church holds to them.

I may go to church only one day a week and go to work five days a week, but I think that a good church is more important than a good job, so if I have to move to a different town, or find employment elsewhere, I will first look for a sound Reformed Church where I can have my membership transferred rather than moving elsewhere before trying to find a new church.

I would be interested to know what you guys think.

__________________
Jean-David Jutras
URCNA
Alberta

I became a 5-pointer and remained at my previous church for another 2.5 years. It was alright at first because it was like a game of spot the error. However the more and more I learned about the doctrines of grace and the Reformed hermeneutic my "game" turned into torture. It eventually got to the point that I was depressed to go to church. I was the pastors assistant or in Baptistese I was the pastors armorbearer. It was great because I saw firsthand how brutal the life of a pastor can be. We shared a lot and it was quite the learning experience. I began to question why we had deacons and no elders. I questioned why the deacons did nothing except want they wanted to do. Their call to service was more like a call to supervise others doing the service. I took issue with the pastor being the "CEO" of the church. While the members of the congregation "voted" it was without question in the direction of the pastors "vision." I questioned the "vision." I questioned why the church had to vote on issues which were as basic as the maintenance of the building.

I received the call into the ministry and began attending seminary. Things got worse. I heard and still hear heretical stuff at seminary and then again at church. Prayed that God would "release" me from that church. The pastor and I were great friends but the theology and everything else about the church were like sand in my shorts or crackers in my bed...irritating.

Began the ordination classes and continued praying. One day out of the blue I was instructed not to attend the class. Then the following Sunday and the next. Finally I asked what was going on and the pastor tells me that he's rethinking whether or not he should ordain me because I disagree with the theology of the church. Recommended that sense I had Presbyterian leanings that perhaps he would model my ordination like a Reformed church.

To shorten the story I left that church after another 4 weeks of prayer and joined a PCA church of a brother I met at the Miami Pastors Conference. He and I met every month to talk about theology and was the first call I made when I was told my ordination was on hold. I was not upset my ordination was on hold. I took issue even with the ordination because the questions all 25 of them were basic and I believed that ordination should involve written tests, oral exams, and schooling.

I thank God how it all went. Still trying to seek wisdom on lessons learned but thankful for the move. Now I'm undercare of the session and after the Presbytery meeting should be undercare of the Presbytery. Praying for a 2011 ordination and then into the military.....

Sheesh...didn't think I'd post this much.

__________________
Frank
Under Care
P.C.A.
Maryland

That sounds like my personal experience, too!

The move away from Churches being based on locality is very very regrettable, while it may in certain instances be necessary due to the ruin of the Church and the end of direct Apostolic authority a demand for purity in the Church can verge on Donatism at times.

__________________
Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

It must be hard for you to be back in full-time studies and have to look after a family with four children! When I was doing my B.Sc. I was studying, doing assignments or attending classes for 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Some of us have no choice because we live in a liberal wasteland. So we do and find the best we can.

__________________
Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA

__________________
Ben Franks

I attend: Ketoctin Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
in Purcellville, Virginia
I'm a member of: Heartland Community Church (PCA)
in Wichita, Kansas
I blog here (along with my Dad): http://rrfranks.blogspot.com/
And I'm a student here: www.phc.edu

"Remember the speeches we have spoken so often over our mead, when we raised boast on the bench, heroes in the hall, about hard fighting. Now may the man who is bold prove that he is."-Aelfwine at the Battle of Maldon

I am not sure if I understand your sentence. You mean that it is a sad fact that many believers can no longer attend the church that is closest in location. I guess that is especially true for you, since in the 1600s virtually all churches in Scotland were orthodox, and so people simply attended the one nearest to them. (I know you live in London, but your denomination is from Scotland).

There really is no easy answer to the questions posed in the OP. What are the minimum acceptable doctrines that a church holds to that would qualify it as legitimate? Is Calvinism, baptism and the Lord's Supper enough? I'd have a difficult time if I had to find a new church home in this area. I'd either have to drive more than an hour one way or go to a Presbyterian church. Neither option would be my first choice

Work is another consideration. It's not always about the bigger house, boat or luxuries of life. Sometimes it's simply being able to support your family.

Like I said, there is no easy answer.

I am pretty sure that being a chef yourself, you could easily find employment in another town where there is a church that you would love to attend. You can't imagine how much you are missing out. Another possibility is that you could drive farther out. If you attend service only once on Sunday, it would not be too big of a deal to drive for 90min to and 90min fro. There are people at my church who do it.

Too many splits in the Univeral Church have come about due to a desire for purity. This is just plain wrong unless the error amounts to apostasy. It is as a result of sin that the Catholic Church fragmented and degenerated following the Apostolic era.

That's what I personally find surprising about you and other Baptists on this board. They hold so strongly to believer's baptism that they would rather attend an Arminian Baptist church than a sound Presbyterian church like PCA or OPC, etc. In the end, it simply boils down to what you personally see as "primary" and "secondary". Although you should never go against your conscience in the end. I myself would rather attend a sound Reformed Baptist church than a liberal Presbyterian church, or a Wesleyan church where they also accept infant baptism.

There you have a problem in that a confessional Baptist church would often not allow you to partake of the sacraments which rather rules it out as your Church. Saying that for long periods of time Toplady used to attend dissenting Chapels but only took Communion at the C of E churches whose preaching he abhored (although this was more for his own scruples than due to a refusal by the dissenters to let him partake).

Some people believe that it is wrong to leave a church if there is any sign of [spiritual] life in it.

__________________
Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia


“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther

I attended a PCA church for a little while and loved it. Also, I wouldn't say the SBC is liberal. It's certainly not as reformed as when it started but belief in inerrancy is in the Baptist Faith and Message. The Founders (Reformed) Movement is growing more than ever also so its becoming less arminian.

__________________
[B]Manley Beasley[/B]
Southern Baptist Convention
Fayetteville, Arkansas

[B]Wir sein pettler. Hoc est verum (We are beggars. This is true.).--Luther's dying words[/B]

I'm sorry, I find this personally offensive. As a 5-pointer (and I will defend my bona fides any day) I find it offensive that you would state that the church I pastor is only a "so-called" church because it doesn't meet your definition of a church. If we Calvinists are not to enter into Arminian pulpits and teach there because they are not churches, then who will take the gospel to them in ministry?

__________________
Lance G. Marshall
Pastor
Georgetown, Indiana

I live in a country with no reformed churches, so I would have to move out of te country-
I can be lucky and sometimes find pastors who are leaning toward the reformed theology, but that is as good as it gets over here.

__________________
Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
Soli Deo Gloria

You're making the wrong assumption that baptism alone would be the driving force behind whatever decision I would make. And if you read my post you would have noticed that I said neither (driving an hour one way, or attending a Presbyterian church) would be my first choice.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

zero? I am so sorry to hear that. We need to pray for that country.

__________________
Boliver
Future Chaplain
EPC
Hankamer, TX

We originally were in the PCUSA, and when the Lord allowed us to see the sickness in that denomination, we and a few others connected with a PCA church who helped us start a mission church here. So if a reformed person knows any others who might be like-minded, you may be able to get help starting a new church in your area.

At this point, I'd have to go to a conservative Arminian Baptist church over a liberal presbyterian church if those were our only two choices. But in reality, we currently drive 25 minutes to a conservative ARP church.

__________________
Janis
Christ Church ARP, NC
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." Eph. 1:3-6 ESV

Thank you. I was about to say the same thing.

__________________
David
Pastor
Southern Baptist
Missouri
The Cave

I currently attend a non-Reformed church. The reason I am doing so is because as a student at a secular university, I was craving Christian fellowship and friendship with people my age. I went to a school where I didn't know anyone, and so I wanted to surround myself with christians my age.
When I checked out the local OPC, there was no college students (it has since grown to include 6-7 students). I checked out the church I currently attend and they have a college ministry of about 20-25 dedicated college students. Most of the students are serious "about their faith" and show depth and desire when it comes to study the Scriptures. This is a blessing for me because I had been so use to Christianity lite all my life when it came to youth groups.
We all don't agree when it comes to Calvinism, and the Pastor isn't Calvinist (though he is sympathetic toward the Doctrines of Grace), however I have highly valued surrounding myself with these people. Plus, I get a ton of good Reformed teaching from all the sermons and radio programs I listen to throughout the week.
When I do come home on breaks, I do attend the local PCA, and when it comes to the preaching, it is like a breath of fresh air.

__________________
Brian Vandenburg
Member of Westminster Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Vancouver, WA
"The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God."-Westminster Confession of Faith

It's easier said than done, finding employment. I have a family to take care of. We've only got 5 years left to pay on our home, and it does set us up for our older years. And our home is very energy efficient. And on a lake! I'm not gonna put my wife out of the home and into the work force. We would have enough $$$ to do what ever we want, but at what price?

The reformers taught that it is a sin to leave a 'sinful' church and goto one that we thought was 'less' sin-full.

I'm also the spiritual head of my family, not our church. They get more from me during the week than the 20 minutes at church. Hence we talk about what was said at church, and not just absorb it. Plus, as my tag shows, I do have influence. And of the right kind.

That being said, Things could get bad enough in the local church for us to leave. I learned long ago not to judge a local church by what the 'national' people are saying/doing. No church is perfect. All Church's have problem areas. So when I joined and gave my oath, I take it seriously. Look at the bright side. I annoy them alot more than they annoy me.

Driving 90 minutes to church and 90 minutes from church is too long. Going to a local church with people that live in your area is important. When I bump into people from church when I'm at work is interesting and useful.

All of these things are things that a family has to consider. And as the leader of my home, I'm responsible for us. Financially, how we live out our marriage, and Spiritually. And like I said, I live in a liberal wasteland, so I have to deal with the best I can find.

The churches around where I live, up to 25 miles, are all RCC or an atrocious variety of Baptist or Pentecostal. We have the option to drive 30-50 miles to go to church but then it is hard to get to know anyone there and at that point you are not getting much out of church that you can not get from the internet or by doing your own studying. So for us we are probably going to have to sacrifice what we would like to have for the sake of fellowship with believers. Even if they are not like minded.

__________________
Erick Bohndorf, Redeemer Presbyterian PCA
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pr...90&ref=profile
Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one’s labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward. Ecclesiastes

Fair enough, so you stay and fight. But I think that as a pastor it is easier to do so than when you are a layman or office holder.

I was in agony for years at the church I attended because as a deacon, I could only fight just so much before I was soiling the nest in a very non-Christian way. You can look back at certain posts of mine over the last two years and see the schitzophrenia (sp?) over staying or running. None of my children are baptized because I would not have them dunked by an elder board who were in serious error. The ONLY reason I stayed is because there was not another supervised congregation within 100 miles. There were house churches, sure, but that's it. No pastoral care, no direction given by elders, nothing. It was a Hal Camping field day.

Those who head into this sort of thing as a 'mission' are in need of serious support - these are mission fields full of vipers. The lies are so much more infectious when they are sprinkled with what looks like truth.

I don't mean to be trite, Pastor Marshall, but I will be praying for you. If this is the situation you are in, it is a hard row to hoe, and not for a lone gunslinger.

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Sounds like a good reason to fire up a reformation! Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Theognome

__________________
Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

Drive to Friesland, you'll find plenty of them. Even Groningen has some good ones. I'd venture to say that Germany has more than a few, and they're closest of all (though many Frisians say that they understand Danish OK because the languages are so close. Give it a try - it's only a few hour commute!)

-----Added 1/17/2009 at 10:37:00 EST-----

Yeah, never mind, Martin. The idea above will save a bundle in gas money, and is probably more scriptural anyway.

Believe me, I don't discount the struggle and have counseled Reformed people to find a Reformed church. My objection was only to the broad brush being used. Thank you for your prayers.

It's obvious that a person that thinks the churches in the SBC are liberal knows very little about the SBC.

__________________
Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

I believe that only believers should be baptized, but I would rather go to a Presbyterian church that is a member of the PCA or OPC than an Arminian Baptist church. Even though seeker-sensitive churches and Pentecostal churches practice deny infant baptism, I would not go to those churches.

__________________
Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

What guidelines does the Bible give for leaving one church that's "less reformed" (or "not reformed") to join a church that's "more reformed"?

__________________
B.Howes
Framingham, MA

It is opening a whole different can of worms to say that if a church is not reformed it is liberal. That simply is not the case. I have found that older people, 70 and up, who are not reformed are more "conservative" and more apt to get the gospel right than young people who claim to be reformed.

Jean,
When I was a Charismatic I attended a couple of different "deformed" churches.
Just funnin' ya,
Kevin

__________________
Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

As you can read above, our duty as believers is to unite with a true church, even if faced with death or corporal punishment. True churches purely preach the gospel, rightly administer the sacraments, and exercise church discipline. A church either bears all these marks or ceases to be a true congregation of Christ, for the true and false church "are easily known and distinguished from each other."

This essay by PB's own Dr. McMahon explains the matter in greater detail.

__________________
Bryan Peters
Providence Reformed Church (URCNA)
Des Moines, Iowa

Doctrinal truth should be preached always, openly, without compromise, and never dissembled or concealed. There is no offence in it; it is the staff of uprightness.
~Martin Luther~

This leads me to think it isn't clearly an either-or situation, but a scale from less to more.

There is a difference between your test that a church purely preaches the gospel and the confessional test that the pure doctrine of the Gospel is preached. A church can exhibit all sorts of errors (it can sing praise choruses, have bishops and female deacons) yet preach the pure gospel, even though it is not purely preaching the Gospel.

One test is content, the other is context.

Forgive me if I don't seem overly cheerful in this thread. I'm speaking as a moderator right now. To whom it applies: be careful of the aspersions you cast about churches or denominations you disagree with. Be careful about telling people they should quit their jobs, stop being selfish and move to an area where this is a true church. Have some charity towards your lesser informed and more ignorant brethren. Not all of us are as blessed as you are.

I was actually thinking more along lines of content when I wrote that true churches "purely preach the Gospel." However, I don't think you can legitimately ascribe such a strong separation between context and content from the standpoint of the Reformed confessions. The Second Helvetic Confession speaks of the "the lawful and sincere preaching of the Word of God" as one of the marks of a true church. Context does seem to be included under the language of "lawful and sincere."

Zilch, Zero, Nada...a little El Rusbo lingo there

The Second Helvetic Confessions does seek balance where it states in the "Of The Catholic and Holy Church of God,
and of The One Only Head of The Church" chapter XVII: