My Former Prof at PTS (who is the authority on homosexuality in the mainlines) has a provocative answer in an article posted here.
Well worth the look.
My Former Prof at PTS (who is the authority on homosexuality in the mainlines) has a provocative answer in an article posted here.
Well worth the look.
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Ruling Elder Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA
"I am as happy as perhaps creation can make me. I enjoy all the necessaries and most of the conveniences of life. I have a peaceful study as a refuge from the hurries and noise of the world around me, the venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me..." --Samuel Davies
Deo Vindice
To answer the OP question: They should leave. In fact, they should have left years ago. And I'd add that the reasons for my answer are legion, with the issue of homosexuality being but one matter.
Ben
Chaplain, US Army
Ft. Riley, KS
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA
DD2009 (10-07-2009)
David
PCA
Richardson, Texas
Saving faith is an immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, resting upon Him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of God's grace.
--C.H. Spurgeon
Montanablue (10-08-2009)
What are the grounds of leaving a church anyway? I know that as a Presbyterian I have such a high caution of people leaving a church. I remember reading Calvin's Institutes (book 4). He has such a high view the church, and a very cautious attitude about leaving a church. He even states that leaving a church should be well deliberative. So I would ask what then are those conditions, and where are those conditions found in the Bible?
Julio Martinez Jr.
Member of Grace Presbyterian Church (PCA)
My Blog
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children." Hosea 4:6, ESV
glorifyinggodinwv (10-08-2009), Josiah (10-08-2009)
He's trying to define the argument too narrowly -- I cannot accept that a church is defined by its view of sexual relationships -- it is defined by its allegiance to Christ and submission to His authority. The ELCA holds to an image of Christ (a loving, inclusive figure that is a bare shadow of the true God) and long ago rejected the authority of the scriptures.
To some extent, even trying to engage in his argument, you are giving away the farm, since a premise is a given and the argument is judged on whether the conclusion may be supported by the preceding statements.
Josiah (10-08-2009), Montanablue (10-08-2009)
True, but I'm fairly certain he wouldn't have been caught dead in a denomination that has degenerated to this level.
They should leave and either start a new denomination, or join the LCMS or the Association of Free Lutheran Churches or whatever else there is that's not like ELCA.![]()
Austin Williamson
Electrical engineering student at Texas State University
Member of Church of the Cross (PCA)
San Marcos, TX
Let us, then, as we would show ourselves to be godly, keep close to the rule of worship, and in the things of Jehovah go no further than we can say, 'It is written'.
~Rev. Thomas Watson, The Godly Man's Picture
Have you read the statement of the founders of your denomination?
PCA Historical Center - Documents: Message to All Churches (7 December 1973)
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas
My question, however, is more specific. What are those conditions? I get that Calvin wouldn't "find himself dead" in a church that has degenerated to this level. I would like to know what are those conditions then? Obviously sexual orientation shouldn't be the rule. What is "the rule?"
-----Added 10/7/2009 at 07:15:14 EST-----
Yes I have. But my question is for the opinion of those engaged in this forum.
Julio Martinez Jr.
Member of Grace Presbyterian Church (PCA)
My Blog
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children." Hosea 4:6, ESV
I would argue that there are three marks that identify the true church of Christ. We have no right to separate from any church which bears these marks, but we are responsible to separate from any body which fails to bear these marks.
The three marks are inextricably connected. As the visible Gospel, the sacraments cannot be corrupted without corrupting the church's presentation of the Gospel itself. Corruption of church discipline corrupts the sacraments, corrupting the Gospel. To practically illustrate, a congregation which does not fence the Lord's Table in any way is preaching an antinomian message by her administration of the sacraments, thus corrupting the Gospel itself. I would also add that churches do not preach a Gospel from the pulpit for long that contradicts the message of their sacramental practice. Most congregations that commune unrepentant sinners do not preach against their sins while so doing."The marks, by which the true Church is known, are these: if the pure doctrine of the gospel is preached therein; if she maintains the pure administration of the sacraments as instituted by Christ; if church discipline is exercised in punishing of sin: in short, if all things are managed according to the pure Word of God, all things contrary thereto rejected, and Jesus Christ acknowledged as the only Head of the Church. Hereby the true Church may certainly be known, from which no man has a right to separate himself."
Article 29, The Belgic Confession
Most will agree that preaching of a false gospel necessitates separation, but will then balk at the inclusion of the administration of the sacraments and church discipline. However, notice Paul's response to the imposition of circumcision in addition to baptism on Gentile believers. He believes the Gospel itself is at stake (Gal. 2:5)!
Bryan Peters
Providence Reformed Church (URCNA)
Des Moines, Iowa
Here is found the most fundamental difference between liberalism and Christianity:
liberalism is altogether in the imperative mood, while Christianity begins with a triumphal indicative;
liberalism appeals to man's will, while Christianity announces, first, a gracious act of God.
~J. Gresham Machen~
austinww (10-07-2009), Edward (10-07-2009), Josiah (10-08-2009), Julio Martinez Jr (10-07-2009), lynnie (10-08-2009), Montanablue (10-08-2009)
Austin Williamson
Electrical engineering student at Texas State University
Member of Church of the Cross (PCA)
San Marcos, TX
Let us, then, as we would show ourselves to be godly, keep close to the rule of worship, and in the things of Jehovah go no further than we can say, 'It is written'.
~Rev. Thomas Watson, The Godly Man's Picture
Julio Martinez Jr.
Member of Grace Presbyterian Church (PCA)
My Blog
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children." Hosea 4:6, ESV
I have a group of inlaws that are ELCA. They believe they are standing up for "gay rights" and that their church is the only one doing the "right thing". They told my wife that our church (PCA) discriminates against gays and that we are intolerant. One of my wifes sisters who had visited our church a few times has decided to instead go to a more "accepting of people" non-denominational church because the PCA is "against gays".
I just found out about this a few minutes ago. Apparently they really grilled my wife today when they were out together.
So, this is unfortunate. I think the ELCA and all Churches like it are under the influence of the devil. These are dark days for the Church Universal.
David
PCA
Richardson, Texas
Saving faith is an immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, resting upon Him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of God's grace.
--C.H. Spurgeon
Berean (10-08-2009)
Backwoods Presbyterian (10-08-2009)
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog
"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)
DD2009 (10-08-2009)
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Ruling Elder Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA
"I am as happy as perhaps creation can make me. I enjoy all the necessaries and most of the conveniences of life. I have a peaceful study as a refuge from the hurries and noise of the world around me, the venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me..." --Samuel Davies
Deo Vindice
You could cause a big stir like I did when I left the PCUSA. (Just kidding) Seriously, the elders and leadership need to know why you are leaving. Meet with the leadership, them the reasons with biblical references, and then quietly walk away.Very believable. Thanks. So say someone does leave the congregation or denomination. What then? What is the responsibility of the "leaving party?"
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27
Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/
Julio Martinez Jr.
Member of Grace Presbyterian Church (PCA)
My Blog
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children." Hosea 4:6, ESV
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