These things get so drawn out! I got eat right, sleep and exercise before I get in these debates which I'm not good at.

I have to admit ignorance and see if I am understanding you rightly pastor. The Jew and the church are the same?

I only got as far in my reasoning that the lineage defined who had to obey the Mosaic law because the were in covenant. I then tried to see the differences between the to "roles of names" to see of the differences can be explained away to be completely applicable to the church (or to what extent or what modifications)

Also, I was saying that a Jew could never be taken off the list even if excommunicated because it was a blood line. It had nothing to do with violating the covenant.

They were passive in being put in the lineage as we are passive in being put in the Book of Life because we were acted upon and were given faith in Christ.

I know my post is convoluted and I do not explain myself well but please bear with me and make the most of the post if you can!

__________________
Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church [ekklesia] in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Act 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Yes, Israel was the church in the OT.
Why do we need to "explain away" the fact of lists of names in the Bible, lists used in the conduct of religious business? Or to look for reasons why we should not apply such practice to a NT situation? Even if you only think confessors ought to be on such a list, can we not see a similarity in rationale for either?



But, I have to say that I understand why some Baptists would take this position, since (under that view) the NT situation is so "spiritual" that there is no visible administration of the New Covenant. Such a roll would be, at best, a pragmatic concession to weakness of memory.

Our rolls are NOT simply current lists of members/attendees. They are a part of the administration of the church, a historic process. These are the records of the church. So the roll reads all the members, past and present. Past members are marked as "deceased" when they die, their earthly membership is remembered. Excommunicated members are recorded first at their baptism, and later note is made of their discipline. I have seen the same person marked as "restored" at a later date.

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us.
--Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --

Yes, that explains my underlying reasoning and put well.

But, taking a Presbyterian or Baptist church role, kept accurate and to the best of man's ability the big difference which to me makes a lot of difference, is that the Jewish genealogy was 100% accurate comprising the real church (going to heaven believers) + going to hell non-believers with Abraham's blood in their veins.

The church role is any man's best guess. We can't weed out the baddies to make a perfect role - so, and here's my point, why keep one? Since it will be wrong let's not keep one. The 100% accurate book is the Lamb's Book of Life.

I understand your reasoning here but I can't agree. If any family had an ongoing line of believers in the "Smith" family, let's say, I'd say Amen! But we see the membership grow from "faith to faith" and (Praise God) He sure does grant faith to my brothers' children but often not.

__________________
Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

I would confront said person. Discipline? Difficult to do since they have not submitted to the leadership of the church.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Bill,

If you have a pastor's heart (and man, I know you do) you would tell that brother whome you love to get his act together cause he's in trouble with God! The bigger the pastor-heart, the more obligated he feels to Christians around him. Your rebuke may do the trick to get him in line.

We have a familiy at our church who will not become members for theonomist views (true story) but he has a relationship with the pastor and our big-hearted pastor treats him in many ways as a friend, brother, and counselor but (shock) he ain't on the role!

__________________
Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

It is because of posts like these that I am a part of PB!

Would you mind, Rev Buchanan, if I used this in the 'paper' I am writing about membership?

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

Isn't 'confrontation' a form of discipline, Bill? Many times all my wife has to do to discipline me is confront me.

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

That is what the confrontation would be about. Maybe I should have said that progressive discipline would be difficult if the person was not a member. You really could not bring them up in front of the church since they are not members.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Ken, see post #49.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Bill, the concern I have (which doesn't invalidate the practice) is suggested by something Bruce said about a membership roll defining the limits of accountability. In one sense, I can certainly see how this is so. And if you practice close(d) communion, then it may be that a confrontation is that all can be done with someone who is not a member. But in churches which practice open communion, if the elders are not willing to discipline a non-member by barring them from the Lord's table (or if they will take no responsibility in prayer and visitation for that person --and I'm not saying that Bruce practices or advocates either of these), then I think something has gone rather wrong. In today's climate it often does take people quite a long time to be sure that they want to join this particular church: perhaps there is a distinctive they don't understand; perhaps they are Baptists in a presbyterian wilderness; perhaps the membership class at the church is a 3-year course. If they are discovered in flagrant, unrepentant sin during that time they should be barred from communion: if a problem is suspected, they should be visited.

__________________
Ruben
Moderator

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Calvinistas Conversando - Reformed Discussion Board in Spanish.

Spanish Blog -Teologia en Mexico
English Blog -The Howling Wilderness

In my imaginary church you could

__________________
Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

Uuuuummmm... This is post #49...

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

I think he meant post #48.

__________________
Ruben
Moderator

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Calvinistas Conversando - Reformed Discussion Board in Spanish.

Spanish Blog -Teologia en Mexico
English Blog -The Howling Wilderness

Gotcha. Why would it be impossible to establish a matter with someone who is not a member? I think there is 'de facto' membership. If you show up to my church every Sunday to hear me preach and ask for my prayers and attend fellowship with the church for months on end, then you are, for all practical purposes, a member of my church. I don't see what would stop me from establishing a matter with such a person.

It is not the perfect situation, I agree, but it is still possible.

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

Top 10 Reasons To Not Be A Church Member:
10. I retain my own independence and not have to submit to anyone in the church for accountability, prayer, discipleship or participation.
9. I can come to church whenever I feel like it.
8. When I don't feel like coming to church, nobody gives me annoying phone calls asking me why I didn't come to church.
7. I can live my life as sinful as I wish without anyone in the church ranting on me about it.
6. There's weekly dues of tithes or offerings that's expected of membership. As a non-member, I don't have to give anything.
5. Members are expected to participate in the many major church events and activities. As a non-member, I can pick and choose if I want to come to any of them or not.
4. I don't want to serve others; I want others to serve me.
3. I can complain and criticize about the church members and its leaders because I'm not really part of them.
2. I'm already serving and involved in the church as a non-member in the exact same capacity and opportunity as the members of the church.

And the #1 benefit to not being a church membership is....

*drum rolls

*more drum rolls

*even more drum rolls

*cymbals clash

1. Membership is like marriage - too tied down. I like checking out many ladies; and I like checking out many churches. So to Joshua Harris telling me to "Stop Dating The Church," no way jose...

__________________
Will Shin
Rockville, MD

and that is the Calvary chapel way: no commitment required or desired.

__________________

Is 'de facto' membership like common law marriage?
I would certainly agree that you would have the right, as any brother would, to address a matter. But without a defined and clear statement that I have submitted to you and the other elders as a member of your church, it's simply advice. You have no authority explicitly.

__________________
BJ Mora
Grace OPC, Modesto, CA
Reformed & Presbyterian Churches & Denominations in North America