I'm certainly not an expert on the nuances of the ARP, OPC or even my own PCA.

However, it seems to me the PCA and OPC are very close, slight differences of emphasis, but very close theologically. Being 11x larger and one generation younger, there are bound to be some differences.

I also feel close to the ARP and except for the local option of determining "person" to allow ordaining women as deacons, think it is a sound denomination.

Hopefully, I'm not naive, but I just do not see signs of theological drift in the PCA as a whole. We have managed a whole lot of growth by absorption, evangelism and covenant family fruitfulness. The Federal Vision challenge was big and while there was a lot of harm done by it, we seem to have met it deliberately (albeit slowly) and head on. A 95% vote on a study committee with clear guidelines is remarkable. Think of it, how often do you have 95% agreement and clear guidelines that are neither more nor less restrictive than they need to be.

I am confident we will meet the challenge of women's ordination in the same way, deliberative (albeit more slowly than many would prefer) and head on. Already, there are encouraging signs on this.

While Christianity is never "secure" due to our sin and falleness, I'm really thankful for all the PCA is doing well- and there is much of it. I would be happy to join and receive the OPC- they have a lot to offer us and we have almost as much to offer them. However, I would want them to be fully comfortable with our doctrinal subscription system and other issues and maybe even they can help "keep us straight" in that. I think the system of stating exceptions line by line to the exception, putting them on the record, recording them by presbyteries and then a high level review at the General Assembly has a lot of checks and balances and is actually making both candidates and presbyteries be *more* careful about taking exceptions. This procedure is still relatively new and we are working the bugs out but it is increasing accountability.

Yes, liberalism can and will rear its predictable ugly head as man drifts from focus on God to focus on self and we always need to be on guard. However, there are still an awful lot of good people involved in our Seminary who really care about preserving God's truth. I count Bryan Chappel and Sean Michael Lucas as some of them and am thankful they are there.

Maybe I am too optimistic, but hopefully realistic, that while the PCA is not perfect, it is getting a lot right!

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Arlene
PCA
North Carolina
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.

I think every denomination has problems, but not necessarily the same problems.

The ARP seems just as complacent but no one is taking advantage of the complacency as they seem to be in the PCA. This could be an illusion, as changes or disturbances in the PCA will undoubtedly carry more note than the equivalent in the ARP, but I would think I would catch anything crazy comming down the line from my Pastor.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

ATV, that sounds encouraging and I hope the PCA stands firm in the face of female ordination. As I said, I am concerned for the PCA and want to see the PCA prosper. I could easily see myself as a member in a PCA church in the near future when I have to move futher in town away from my current church. (Not that I live all that close now.) They are undoubedtly the largest, most visible conservative Presbyterian denomination, and I'd love to see them remain solid. We need no more PCUSA's.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

I think by far the biggest problem in the PCA (as well as in some ARP churches) is the swift movement away from Reformed, RPW-worship, to non-denominational happy-clappy praise song/solo's worship.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

My pastor, former PCA guy, has been slowly steering our congregation as far away from the latter as he can since he got here. I'm not sure how it was before he came (they were without a pastor for 7 years or some obscene amount of time), as I wasn't converted or attending yet, but some of the traditions and practices that still carry over make my skin crawl.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

What kind of stuff exactly?

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

Was the PCA ever strong on "Reformed, RPW-worship"? I have limited experience, but it seems to me that those churches that have "traditional" worship seem to be more Anglican than Reformed in their worship. You can have contemporary tunes and be in line with the RPW or you can have traditional tunes and be miles from it.

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

Very true SRoper. The content of the uninspired hymns and songs should be sacrosanct.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

Leave them separate. The "steel sharpens steel" theory would apply here. Nothing like a little competitiveness among siblings, eh?

What would be more interesting to me than an OPC and PCA merger would be to see all the Baptists coordinate a massive "Joining and Receiving".

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Bob Lynam
Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Raleigh, NC

Yes, and it would take years, perhaps decades, to work out all those differences, and those in the OPC with strongly-held beliefs would not agree ahead of time to be outvoted by the PCA's greater numbers. So it's not gonna happen, regardless of 56% of the PB's current voters thinking it should.

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HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do your abbreviations mean?

1. DoW (Department of War?)
2. FV/NPP (I'm guessing you mean "Federal Vision" and "New Perspective on Paul.")

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Will Shin
Rockville, MD

Directory of Worship, aka, Directory for the Public Worship of God.
You got it.

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Casey Bessette
Westminster OPC • West Suburbs of Chicago • My Blog: Paradise Regained

"It is part of the calling of the ekklesia to learn to know the love of Christ that surpasses all knowledge and also to make known within the world of science 'the manifold wisdom of God' in order that the final end of theology, as of all things, may be that the name of the Lord is glorified. Theology and dogmatics, too, exist for the Lord's sake." — Herman Bavinck, Reformed Dogmatics, vol. 1, p. 46

Wow, I didn't know OPC had issues with theonomy or NPP. As for FV, that's not the same as NPP, is it? I always associated FV with Doug Wilson, and NPP with N.T. Wright.

As for theonomy, then are Chalcedon Foundation and its founder R.J. Rushdoony still considered OPC? I thought they were kicked out of the OPC because of their revisionism and theonomy. But if the OPC embrace theonomy, then they're still OPC?

As for DoW, I never heard of that term before. I'm going to have to research more about that.

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Will Shin
Rockville, MD

Just to add...

There's been talk in some circles for years of a split between the Reformed/Pipa/Smith/Greenville/Knox school and the Evangelical/Chappell/Keller/Covenant school in the works. I still don't see it, but if it does happen perhaps the Modern-Evangelical PCA could join a much enlarged EPC, and the Reformed PCA be part of a three-way merger with the OPC and ARP, especially if the ARP would do what the RPCES did with their women deacons and let them rotate out, as well as dropping the extra chapters from the Westminster Confession.

Incidentally, the church I am a member of now came out of an ARP church that petitioned the General Synod a few years ago to rescind deaconesses. It failed, but maybe there's hope.

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Johnathan Tate
Cornerstone Presbyterian Church, Arden, NC
Westminster Standards, Second Helvetic Confession

"God has brought us where we are, to consider the work we may do in the world, as well as at home." - HSH Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of the Republic of England, Scotland, and Ireland

In my short time in the ARP I do not know that many churches that have deaconesses. It seems to be a rare thing.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

I'm certainly not an expert on this but I recall a paper by Mr Kellar that defined the "original contract" in the PCA as to faith and practice, much of which is either inferred from what was written down or was unwritten. His paper included things that would indentify the denomination like:

ordaining women in ruling authority-no
Reformed doctrines of Grace (Calvinism)-yes
open charismatic corporate worship-no

I don't see any blocks advocating such now, even among those you mention. There may be other issues such as come from a general falling away from biblical truth but not along the lines you mention. As I understand it, the EPC would fall opposite on all the issues above.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina

Soli Deo Gloria

At our OPC General Assembly this year, one of the fraternal delegates was Clair Davis from the PCA. Fraternal delegates are allowed 10 minutes to speak before the GA. Davis rambled on for about 40 minutes, and no one got up to challenge him, mainly because (reports the TE I know who was there and told me this), there were so many of his former students among the commissioners.

Anyway, Davis was waxing nostalgic over the old "joining and receiving" actions of 30 years ago or so. He said that there should have been more understanding on both sides regarding what was happening, and he (apparently) wished that it had gone through so that the two denominations could have been joined (read: PCA swallows OPC).

The upshot of the whole thing (according to my TE buddy) was that, between Davis ignoring his 10 minute limit, and him waxing nostalgic over the "joining and receiving" movement, with its implied rebuke to the OPC over its failure, some of the OPC commissioners were upset. The general feeling was, "Well, that speech just set PCA and OPC relations back 10 years!"

Must have been interesting...

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Richard T. Zuelch, M.Div
Ruling Elder, OPC (not currently serving)
Westminster Presbyterian Church, CA (OPC)
www.reiterations.wordpress.com
www.foft.wordpress.com

"If anyone cries at my funeral I'll never speak to him again!" - Stan Laurel (1890-1965)

We "technically" allow for them but now that we have more men in the church, we no longer have any on the board.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

I was in the OPC since 1987 before moving to FL and joining the ARP. A few years ago, the OPC decided to allow for some difference of opinion as to each one's belief regarding creation. There are many 6/24 members as there are those who hold to an old earth theory.

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Michael Masztal
H.S. Science Teacher at Community Christian School, Melbourne, FL
Member, Chapel By The Sea, ARP
Melbourne Beach, FL

I'd say yes, if the new denomination were to adopt OPC practices. In my experience in the south, the PCA is a real mixed bag, unlike the OPC and I think many compromises would need to be made.