Thread: Response to disruption in the church?

Dr. Lloyd-Jones was approached for advice by his deacons on dealing with a troubled individual who had entered the church just before the service. The Doctor said: "Treat him as you would a dog."

Perhaps that was intelligible at the time, but since we have people who will actually let their dogs into the house, it might be as well to clarify. Lloyd-Jones did not mean "kick him if he gets close to you and holler 'Don't touch me!'" He also did not mean, "Scratch behind his ears and talk to him in babytalk." He meant, "Treat him firmly and with authority."

Obviously, that will not be applicable to all situations, but a calm and yet authoritative approach can quiet a lot of people.

Originally Posted by lynnie

Brian-

Please let me clarify my thinking.

My daughter was adopted before age 3 from a condition of severe neglect and malnutrition( Romania). During 3rd grade we had her fully tested and she has central auditory processing disorder, which happens with neglect or maybe severe infant ear infections. The brain does not wire properly. She acts normal when you talk to her, but concentration in the presence of sound is terrible.

The testing hooks earphones to the ears and does a battery of tests. In one, they ask questions into one ear and the child answers. Mine scores 100%. They then add talking or street noise, etc into the other ear and a normal child separates them out and continues to answer. My daughter flunks.

Then sentences are broken into syllables or parts and half played into each ear. A normal kid hears it as a fluid sentence. To my girl it is gibberish. It is like no depth perception with the eyes.

There are things I allow with her I'd never have allowed with her four older brothers. They were forbidden to ignore us when we spoke to them. With her, it can look like arrogant disrespect, but I know that the piano is going in one room, birds are singing outside, and hubby is talking to a brother, and her brain just isn't hearing me. I have to get her attention first.

She gets distracted constantly in church ( drives the SS teacher crazy sometimes). I had to homeschool- they said everytime somebody dropped a pencil or whispered she lost focus. If a baby starts up during the responsive reading, she loses focus. I know she misses part of every sermon.

Yes, there are brain issues. I don't mean to say things can't be part of the wiring.

But-this is vital- what the bible calls sin you must call sin. This is where the authority of scripture prevails. The bi polar guy I referred to if he went off his meds could go into a screaming cursing angry rage. He said it was chemical. Sorry, but it is sin.

...

Of course when it crosses the line into what scripture directly calls sin, then yes it is sin. But we (the church) should NOT put barriers in the way or place someone in the position of not having any ability to follow. What I mean is that if the person has outbursts that are not angry rages (just loud and perhaps not "appropriate" to the situation) then there isn't anything I know that makes it a direct violation of scripture.

It might be that the leadership in the church would say that such outbursts must stop ... which would then set up a no-win situation for the man if he does have a true brain wiring problem, and there is no way for medication to be effective. (Brain chemistry is not something that medical science can fathom even for "behaviors" as well documented as seizures.) In that scenario the man would either have to fail the assembly of the saints (direct violation of the scriptures) or fail to submit to the authorities within the church. It would be no different than a group of really tall elders saying that in order to come into the church you had to slam-dunk a basketball to a 5 year old.

Sure, if the man has medication that is effective, then he should use it and that should be part of the churches "rules" for him. If he by choice goes off the medications when he knows doing so causes him to do sinful acts, then the decision to go off the medications is sinful.

As to the idea that there are those that could be just discipline problems that would have been better off with a spanking when they were young, that is fine if it is just a discipline problem, but because there is no way for medical science to tell why some people have problems that are real medical problems then how do we decide which is which? Doctors still cannot objectively measure chemical imbalances that cause seizure disorders, and the only positive diagnosis is through the measurement of the electrical impulses, but the underlying cause is still hidden. Seizure disorders are relatively easy to see what is wrong; hook up an EEG machine, and when one occurs it shows on the chart. Yet there is still no recognition for the underlying cause, and treatment is by guesswork and trying different medications that treat the symptom. In severe cases, not treating the symptom will kill the patient. Hopefully those that oppose use of drugs don't advocate allowing a child to die because the chemical imbalance can't be measured.

The most severe brain disorders are more easily observed, and people readily accept that someone having seizures really cannot prevent them. It is a pity that there are many people that might not have the same level of disorder, that is still medical in nature, but they are castigated and ostracized by the church for behavioral problems if those problems are not direct violation of scripture.

I am not saying that direct violation of scripture should be tolerated. Even if there is a chemical reason for it. But if someone's behavior is just inconvenient I cannot see how the church justifies a lack of mercy for those on her doorstep that are wounded.

Originally Posted by Tim

Would this fall under the jurisdiction of the deacons?

Tim, sorry I didn't see this ... as a deacon, I can speak to at least what parts would qualify as jurisdiction for deacons.

First, I will cover what is NOT part of the deacons’ jurisdiction. If there is discipline for sin, it is not the place of the deacons to pursue it. The deacons are not a court of the church.

What would fall to them is to help assure the pastor and elders are free to minister the word rather than wait tables. To that end, they can administer mercy. Is the reason the guy doesn’t take his meds because he cannot afford them? If so, the deacons should help intervene in obtaining medication for him. If the medication is not effective all the time even if he has taken it, then they can assign someone to sit with him to help him know when he needs to excuse himself before things get too out of hand – just getting him to get up and go out for a short break might be enough to help him through … I don’t know enough about this particular case.

The ideal situation would be to have them walk along side the man and work toward assuring he has what he needs and is taking his medications, building a relationship with him so they recognize when he is not properly medicated, and establishing protocols to deal with situations that could arise. It isn’t easy, but waiting on tables never is.

I realize this may be totally off base and you probably have no idea, but has he ever had his endocrine system checked out?

I came across an article this morning that mentioned this, the article is more about women, but it might effect men in a similar way..granted he may not have epilepsy, but a hormonal imbalance in this system of the body can apparently bring about bi-polar symptoms..as well as epilepsy in some people..

Webcast/CME - Neuroendocrine Dysfunction in Women with Neurologic or Psychiatric Illness

This text-only teaching module reviews the interaction between epilepsy and endocrine hormones, the relationship of neuroendocrine function and bipolar disorder, polycystic ovary syndrome, the relationship between PCOS, epilepsy and bipolar disorder, and the implications of neuroendocrine dysfunction in epilepsy and bipolar disorder.

Body Rhythms and Bipolar Disorder - Bipolar Disorder

Neurochemistry and Endocrinology in Bipolar Disorder

Originally Posted by ForHisGlory

Our church is trying to handle a unique situation and I wanted to get some more opinions with scriptual support.

A believer has recently started attending our church who is severly bipolar and has attention deficit disorder. He has a problem with constant talking, passing out bulletins, etc. He was recently "kicked out" of another church due to his constant disruptions.

How should the church respond to people like this.....or even with special needs......that may be disruptive to teaching and worship? My heart was saddened to hear that his former church asked him not to come.......but at the same time, how do you handle this for the good of all?

Love him as Christ loves you...forbearing your infirmities. Do not treat him according to his lack of graces or God may do the same to you. Pray that God would increase the love of his people as it appears much of them are growing cold. A heart overflowing with the love and grace of God will know how to treat those who have no advocate. Pray.

Originally Posted by lynnie

I would start by calling the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation

CCEF | Restoring Christ to Counseling and Counseling to the Church

and asking if they have any relevant materials. Maybe somebody like Ed Welch (Blame it on the Brain) has something recent on dealing with bipolars.

I know one who had "no control" over his behaviour. A friend asked if he could stop if somebody gave him a million dollars or put a gun to his head and he said "of course." . I know a severely out of control ADD kid on mega doses of ritalin and other stuff who suddenly-voila- for the very first time in his life started to obey and act calm/normal when at age 12 his Dad gave him the first whipping of his life.

I don't want to get jumped on here for my insensitivity to this alleged chemical brain trouble, but I've known 3 bipolars and they all need to get in a time machine and go back to age 3 and get a good whacking on the rear with a wooden spoon. I'll never ever believe this stuff is uncontrollable. Please at least seek some good imput from CCEF type biblical counselors who can give you some wisdom on how to deal with it in love and truth both.

I have limited experience with these issues (actually that's not exactly true: I taught high school for 11 years, so there were students who were diagnosed as ADD/ADHD and were medicated), so take the following anecdotal accounts with a grain of salt. I know of a fellow ARP minister (I attended seminary with him) who told a group of us one day that he was told this in school by a counselor as an excuse for disruptive behavior in class. His father took off his belt and used it appropriately and my friend never had an outburst again in class. Amazing, a little leather generated a little self-discipline, far more cheaply I might add that a bottle of pills.

The other situation I remember is far more serious. I knew a fellow teacher once who was diagnosed as bipolar. He was hospitalized for a while and medicated, but not even that worked. He was a professing Christian, but he was also fed a good deal of that Bradshaw dribble about his "inner child", etc., so he found something to blame his problems on. I also personally witnessed him go through a severely depressive state once when he wife called me and another friend over because he wouldn't get out of bed and was nearly catatonic. He eventually destroyed our friendship, his marriage, and as far as I know he no longer attends church (and blames God for all of his problems, last I heard -- I have not seen him in a decade). Yet, in speaking with him way back when, the source of his problems (at least one source) was his holding on to sinful bitterness in his life. He resented his parents greatly (the near-catatonic episode occurred when they visited one weekend and he could not deal with it because of past experiences) because he never "fit in" with the family and felt that they loved his brother more than they loved him. He never dealt with the situation, never tried to reconcile, grew more and more bitter, leading to wild mood swings and lashing out at everyone he was close to.

-----Added 2/24/2009 at 10:07:15 EST-----

Originally Posted by BJClark

I realize this may be totally off base and you probably have no idea, but has he ever had his endocrine system checked out?

That may not be a bad idea, but if that happens, make sure it is a doctor who will do a through exam to try to uncover physiological reasons rather that simply writing a prescription.

Even Jay Adams, who does not like the use of medication in treating such disorders, recommends an initial medical checkup in dealing with situations like this. He tells the story of a middle-aged woman who (practically overnight) suddenly began experiencing wild mood swings and disruptive behavior. He recommended she be checked out by a medical doctor before being counseling, and they discovered she had a tumor on one of her ovaries that was playing havoc with her hormones. Once the tumor was removed, she was fine again. If not for that doctor, she most likely would have been dead.