Thread: Response to disruption in the church?

Our church is trying to handle a unique situation and I wanted to get some more opinions with scriptual support.

A believer has recently started attending our church who is severly bipolar and has attention deficit disorder. He has a problem with constant talking, passing out bulletins, etc. He was recently "kicked out" of another church due to his constant disruptions.

How should the church respond to people like this.....or even with special needs......that may be disruptive to teaching and worship? My heart was saddened to hear that his former church asked him not to come.......but at the same time, how do you handle this for the good of all?

Years ago when I was in Tucson, there was a guy in our Baptist church who sounds much like the fellow you're speaking of. They made him an official 'greeter', and also convinced him that he was needed in the nursery to help tend to the mothers caring for very young children (the sermon was piped into the nursery over a speaker). I'm not convinced that this was the right biblical thing to do, but it's what was done.

Theognome

I like the idea of keeping him busy, although he needs to hear the Word preached.

We had a guy like that. I have known him for over over 25 years. He goes from church to church and disrupts everything.

His wife is broken, his children are horribly damaged. He was kicked out of one church after another, but the Christian community wouldn't do anything about it.

He came to my previous church, and I told the Elders that there would be problems. They ignored me, as most people will follow the path of least resistance. I asked them "if there are 6 Reformed churches in our area, and the other 5 have kicked him out, are we really helping him and his family by accepting him? Should we respect the fact that he was kicked out of the other churches?" They ignored me, and of course there was an incident. (I never got an apology from the Session).

The main goal of church discipline is restoration. How can that happen if Churches in your area aren't communicating?

The ideal solution will start with your church contacting the other church(es) that he's disrupted and coming to a consensus with them as to how to handle him.

Here are some thoughts - take them for what they're worth. Often it's easier to come up with ideas from afar, but they might not work in your situation.
Tell him that the church has had trouble with people disrupting the service. Then, ask him if he would be willing to sit in the back and watch for such disturbances. If someone speaks or makes any commotion, he could write down the time, where they sat, what they were wearing and what the incident entailed. Explain that the church would rather have the leadership deal with the matter, but that it would be appreciated if he could help monitor because disturbances during the services distract people from focusing on God as we all should. He then could hand in his report at the end of services.
It varies, and I can't know the situation, but often those diagnosed as he has been use their diagnosis as an excuse to pursue the behavior. By helping him be productive you might be able to channel his energy and attention so that he's not a distraction. And it would not be inappropriate for the pastor to lovingly ask him to please refrain from making any noise or disturbing anybody during the sermon, from the pulpit, in the event that he becomes distracting. After all, he wouldn't want to get in the way of the Holy Spirit disturbing someone, would he?

I would start by calling the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation

CCEF | Restoring Christ to Counseling and Counseling to the Church

and asking if they have any relevant materials. Maybe somebody like Ed Welch (Blame it on the Brain) has something recent on dealing with bipolars.

I know one who had "no control" over his behaviour. A friend asked if he could stop if somebody gave him a million dollars or put a gun to his head and he said "of course." . I know a severely out of control ADD kid on mega doses of ritalin and other stuff who suddenly-voila- for the very first time in his life started to obey and act calm/normal when at age 12 his Dad gave him the first whipping of his life.

I don't want to get jumped on here for my insensitivity to this alleged chemical brain trouble, but I've known 3 bipolars and they all need to get in a time machine and go back to age 3 and get a good whacking on the rear with a wooden spoon. I'll never ever believe this stuff is uncontrollable. Please at least seek some good imput from CCEF type biblical counselors who can give you some wisdom on how to deal with it in love and truth both.

Three words: Electric shock therapy.

Thanks Lynnie. Your statements are foundational to my response. You're not alone in your position.

There are several classifications of bi polar disorder. FWIW my brother is bi polar 2 which has a psychotic element to it (He hears voices) but he is controlled with medication and would never think of disrupting a worship service as it's far too important to him that he engage in worship of our God during those times.

Originally Posted by Theognome

Years ago when I was in Tucson, there was a guy in our Baptist church who sounds much like the fellow you're speaking of. They made him an official 'greeter', and also convinced him that he was needed in the nursery to help tend to the mothers caring for very young children (the sermon was piped into the nursery over a speaker). I'm not convinced that this was the right biblical thing to do, but it's what was done.

Theognome

WOW! I can't think of a kinder and more reasonable thing to do! Considering that the sermon was piped into the nursery - good deal.

-----Added 2/17/2009 at 01:22:26 EST-----

Originally Posted by lynnie

I would start by calling the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation

CCEF | Restoring Christ to Counseling and Counseling to the Church

and asking if they have any relevant materials. Maybe somebody like Ed Welch (Blame it on the Brain) has something recent on dealing with bipolars.

I know one who had "no control" over his behaviour. A friend asked if he could stop if somebody gave him a million dollars or put a gun to his head and he said "of course." . I know a severely out of control ADD kid on mega doses of ritalin and other stuff who suddenly-voila- for the very first time in his life started to obey and act calm/normal when at age 12 his Dad gave him the first whipping of his life.

I don't want to get jumped on here for my insensitivity to this alleged chemical brain trouble, but I've known 3 bipolars and they all need to get in a time machine and go back to age 3 and get a good whacking on the rear with a wooden spoon. I'll never ever believe this stuff is uncontrollable. Please at least seek some good imput from CCEF type biblical counselors who can give you some wisdom on how to deal with it in love and truth both.

I tend to lean that way myself. I once went to a Church with a "bi-polar" guy and he quit going to church because he got mad at the people on the "praise team" because everything wasn't going his way. Every time he gets ticked off he goes off and his family (including his wife) blames it on his "condition." I'm sorry (and I love this guy... truly) but I am very skeptical about "bipolarism." (4give me if I just created a new word)

-----Added 2/17/2009 at 01:27:46 EST-----

Originally Posted by MrMerlin777

There are several classifications of bi polar disorder. FWIW my brother is bi polar 2 which has a psychotic element to it (He hears voices) but he is controlled with medication and would never think of disrupting a worship service as it's far too important to him that he engage in worship of our God during those times.

OK... now I'm going to show my own "bi polarism" (schizophrenia?) but your situation is one that might convince me of such a condition. This still doesn't keep me from believing that almost everybody I've known in my personal life who claim to be "bi polar" are making excuses for bad behavior.

I think it's respectful to be direct with this person. Tell him that you are aware of his having been asked to leave other churches but you want him to stay. How can the church help him to control his behavior so that you won't have to ask him to leave. Perhaps taking an extra dose of medication or having an elder sit next to him to remind him. Many of these people can't tell the difference between normal and disruptive behavior. Having someone sitting there who will put up a finger as a signal might be all he needs.

Originally Posted by TimV

We had a guy like that. I have known him for over over 25 years. He goes from church to church and disrupts everything.

His wife is broken, his children are horribly damaged. He was kicked out of one church after another, but the Christian community wouldn't do anything about it.

He came to my previous church, and I told the Elders that there would be problems. They ignored me, as most people will follow the path of least resistance. I asked them "if there are 6 Reformed churches in our area, and the other 5 have kicked him out, are we really helping him and his family by accepting him? Should we respect the fact that he was kicked out of the other churches?" They ignored me, and of course there was an incident. (I never got an apology from the Session).

The main goal of church discipline is restoration. How can that happen if Churches in your area aren't communicating?

The ideal solution will start with your church contacting the other church(es) that he's disrupted and coming to a consensus with them as to how to handle him.

The problem is that this is not an issue of discipline, and therefore he should not have been run out of the other congregations to begin with. Discipline deals with the heart, with sin, and severe ADD/Bi-polar problems are not to be grouped in this category. He is a brother in need of care, and thoughtful allowance should be given him by both the leadership and the people of the church.

Originally Posted by Archlute

Originally Posted by TimV

We had a guy like that. I have known him for over over 25 years. He goes from church to church and disrupts everything.

His wife is broken, his children are horribly damaged. He was kicked out of one church after another, but the Christian community wouldn't do anything about it.

He came to my previous church, and I told the Elders that there would be problems. They ignored me, as most people will follow the path of least resistance. I asked them "if there are 6 Reformed churches in our area, and the other 5 have kicked him out, are we really helping him and his family by accepting him? Should we respect the fact that he was kicked out of the other churches?" They ignored me, and of course there was an incident. (I never got an apology from the Session).

The main goal of church discipline is restoration. How can that happen if Churches in your area aren't communicating?

The ideal solution will start with your church contacting the other church(es) that he's disrupted and coming to a consensus with them as to how to handle him.

The problem is that this is not an issue of discipline, and therefore he should not have been run out of the other congregations to begin with. Discipline deals with the heart, with sin, and severe ADD/Bi-polar problems are not to be grouped in this category. He is a brother in need of care, and thoughtful allowance should be given him by both the leadership and the people of the church.

I have to agree with Tim. I have yet to see an ADD situation that was not based in a lack of selfdiscipline, perhaps caused by a lack of godly discipline earlier in life. The Word teaches us how to deal with such issues, but the world, who is in rebellion to such truth, will gladly find a word/disease/syndrome to make the individual a victim instead of a sinner. Chemicals and concessions are the methods used to deal with sin by the unfaithful seeking to be God. Obedience is the command of our Lord, to the embarrassment of the establishment of psychological 'science'.

Theognome

At what point should electric shock therapy be considered?

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

At what point should electric shock therapy be considered?

I don't know you so instead of guessing I'll ask you. Is this a serious suggestion?

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

At what point should electric shock therapy be considered?

If we use the Pentateuch's law for rebellious sons, then the electric chair (or stoning) should be used when the cycle of adolescent rebellion is completed.

Theognome

I have to agree with Tim. I have yet to see an ADD situation that was not based in a lack of selfdiscipline, perhaps caused by a lack of godly discipline earlier in life. The Word teaches us how to deal with such issues, but the world, who is in rebellion to such truth, will gladly find a word/disease/syndrome to make the individual a victim instead of a sinner. Chemicals and concessions are the methods used to deal with sin by the unfaithful seeking to be God. Obedience is the command of our Lord, to the embarrassment of the establishment of psychological 'science'.

Theognome

Hoo, boy... I sure can attest to that, Bill. My drug-drenched alcohol-drowned sister has put my family through sheer hell all her life, but in recent years 'discovered' that she was bipolar, and now has a victimhood badge to wear. Seems to excuse every type of low and dastardly deed. Nice trump card to have up her sleeve. If anything, her behavior looks more like sociopathy. She's even tried to harm my children to get what she wants.

But I do believe that there are people with real problems that are not necessarily covers for bad behavior or lack of self-discipline. Donald's brother sounds like one, and thanks be to God he has found the right treatment. In a case like that, I think Adam is spot on.

Originally Posted by Albatross

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

At what point should electric shock therapy be considered?

I don't know you so instead of guessing I'll ask you. Is this a serious suggestion?

You mean you don't have electrified pews?

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by Archlute

Originally Posted by TimV

We had a guy like that. I have known him for over over 25 years. He goes from church to church and disrupts everything.

His wife is broken, his children are horribly damaged. He was kicked out of one church after another, but the Christian community wouldn't do anything about it.

He came to my previous church, and I told the Elders that there would be problems. They ignored me, as most people will follow the path of least resistance. I asked them "if there are 6 Reformed churches in our area, and the other 5 have kicked him out, are we really helping him and his family by accepting him? Should we respect the fact that he was kicked out of the other churches?" They ignored me, and of course there was an incident. (I never got an apology from the Session).

The main goal of church discipline is restoration. How can that happen if Churches in your area aren't communicating?

The ideal solution will start with your church contacting the other church(es) that he's disrupted and coming to a consensus with them as to how to handle him.

The problem is that this is not an issue of discipline, and therefore he should not have been run out of the other congregations to begin with. Discipline deals with the heart, with sin, and severe ADD/Bi-polar problems are not to be grouped in this category. He is a brother in need of care, and thoughtful allowance should be given him by both the leadership and the people of the church.

I have to agree with Tim. I have yet to see an ADD situation that was not based in a lack of selfdiscipline, perhaps caused by a lack of godly discipline earlier in life. The Word teaches us how to deal with such issues, but the world, who is in rebellion to such truth, will gladly find a word/disease/syndrome to make the individual a victim instead of a sinner. Chemicals and concessions are the methods used to deal with sin by the unfaithful seeking to be God. Obedience is the command of our Lord, to the embarrassment of the establishment of psychological 'science'.

Theognome

Bill, I pray you NEVER see any serious mental illness manifest in your family: it ain't pretty. And it is very very real. ADD and ADHD are rare (they are way overdiagnosed IMNSHO) but the real thing is a handicap. The parents have and continue to do everything that they can but the kids need the Ritalin to be functional.

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

At what point should electric shock therapy be considered?

If we use the Pentateuch's law for rebellious sons, then the electric chair (or stoning) should be used when the cycle of adolescent rebellion is completed.

Theognome

Can you explain this more?

-----Added 2/17/2009 at 11:31:31 EST-----

Originally Posted by Zenas

Originally Posted by Albatross

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

At what point should electric shock therapy be considered?

I don't know you so instead of guessing I'll ask you. Is this a serious suggestion?

You mean you don't have electrified pews?

The whole atmosphere is electric, especially when DC Talk is blaring.

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by Archlute

Originally Posted by TimV

We had a guy like that. I have known him for over over 25 years. He goes from church to church and disrupts everything.

His wife is broken, his children are horribly damaged. He was kicked out of one church after another, but the Christian community wouldn't do anything about it.

He came to my previous church, and I told the Elders that there would be problems. They ignored me, as most people will follow the path of least resistance. I asked them "if there are 6 Reformed churches in our area, and the other 5 have kicked him out, are we really helping him and his family by accepting him? Should we respect the fact that he was kicked out of the other churches?" They ignored me, and of course there was an incident. (I never got an apology from the Session).

The main goal of church discipline is restoration. How can that happen if Churches in your area aren't communicating?

The ideal solution will start with your church contacting the other church(es) that he's disrupted and coming to a consensus with them as to how to handle him.

The problem is that this is not an issue of discipline, and therefore he should not have been run out of the other congregations to begin with. Discipline deals with the heart, with sin, and severe ADD/Bi-polar problems are not to be grouped in this category. He is a brother in need of care, and thoughtful allowance should be given him by both the leadership and the people of the church.

I have to agree with Tim. I have yet to see an ADD situation that was not based in a lack of selfdiscipline, perhaps caused by a lack of godly discipline earlier in life. The Word teaches us how to deal with such issues, but the world, who is in rebellion to such truth, will gladly find a word/disease/syndrome to make the individual a victim instead of a sinner. Chemicals and concessions are the methods used to deal with sin by the unfaithful seeking to be God. Obedience is the command of our Lord, to the embarrassment of the establishment of psychological 'science'.

Theognome

Bill,

While I will agree with you that there are many persons who fall into trap of attempting to cover sin by means of a false diagnosis, that is not true for a good number of folk. My adopted son has had difficulties that would be diagnosed as ADD since he was little. It was not because of a lack of loving and biblical discipline, nor because he has a stubborn and sinful heart (although that is the case at times), but rather because he was born under the influence of his mother's crack addiction, and he has genuine difficulties in some of his brain functions. These have improved over time, but may never fully be overcome apart from God's intervening grace.

This holds true for some dear, young children that I know who are affected by fetal alcohol syndrome, and other issues. These things are genuine neurological disorders, and the best biblical counselors (including the guys at CCEF) recognize this.

Originally Posted by calgal

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by Archlute

The problem is that this is not an issue of discipline, and therefore he should not have been run out of the other congregations to begin with. Discipline deals with the heart, with sin, and severe ADD/Bi-polar problems are not to be grouped in this category. He is a brother in need of care, and thoughtful allowance should be given him by both the leadership and the people of the church.

I have to agree with Tim. I have yet to see an ADD situation that was not based in a lack of selfdiscipline, perhaps caused by a lack of godly discipline earlier in life. The Word teaches us how to deal with such issues, but the world, who is in rebellion to such truth, will gladly find a word/disease/syndrome to make the individual a victim instead of a sinner. Chemicals and concessions are the methods used to deal with sin by the unfaithful seeking to be God. Obedience is the command of our Lord, to the embarrassment of the establishment of psychological 'science'.

Theognome

Bill, I pray you NEVER see any serious mental illness manifest in your family: it ain't pretty. And it is very very real. ADD and ADHD are rare (they are way overdiagnosed IMNSHO) but the real thing is a handicap. The parents have and continue to do everything that they can but the kids need the Ritalin to be functional.

Actually, my family is riddled with it. Coincidentally, my family is also riddled with unbelief. In my family, such conditions are justified through medical diagnosis. In the godly families I know, the problem either does not exist or, if phyisical proof of the condition is paramount, the afflicted conscienciously strive to overcome said condition in Christ. Note that I have one cousin who actually pulled off the insanity plea for the murder of his mother, so I'm not very sympathetic towards this issue.

Theognome

-----Added 2/17/2009 at 11:43:05 EST-----

Originally Posted by Archlute

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by Archlute

The problem is that this is not an issue of discipline, and therefore he should not have been run out of the other congregations to begin with. Discipline deals with the heart, with sin, and severe ADD/Bi-polar problems are not to be grouped in this category. He is a brother in need of care, and thoughtful allowance should be given him by both the leadership and the people of the church.

I have to agree with Tim. I have yet to see an ADD situation that was not based in a lack of selfdiscipline, perhaps caused by a lack of godly discipline earlier in life. The Word teaches us how to deal with such issues, but the world, who is in rebellion to such truth, will gladly find a word/disease/syndrome to make the individual a victim instead of a sinner. Chemicals and concessions are the methods used to deal with sin by the unfaithful seeking to be God. Obedience is the command of our Lord, to the embarrassment of the establishment of psychological 'science'.

Theognome

Bill,

While I will agree with you that there are many persons who fall into trap of attempting to cover sin by means of a false diagnosis, that is not true for a good number of folk. My adopted son has had difficulties that would be diagnosed as ADD since he was little. It was not because of a lack of loving and biblical discipline, nor because he has a stubborn and sinful heart (although that is the case at times), but rather because he was born under the influence of his mother's crack addiction, and he has genuine difficulties in some of his brain functions. These have improved over time, but may never fully be overcome apart from God's intervening grace.

This holds true for some dear, young children that I know who are affected by fetal alcohol syndrome, and other issues. These things are genuine neurological disorders, and the best biblical counselors (including the guys at CCEF) recognize this.

Such is a demonstration of His mercy, for which I am grateful. As I mentioned in the above response, there are some legitimate issues of mental illness. But even through these the sanctification brought by the Spirit of God can be seen through their struggles. It is the control of 'sanctification' through chemicals, pseudobabble and even surgery that I utterly despise. I lost an aunt through such nonsense, and have a number of family members in various prisons and institutions due to it.

Theognome

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by calgal

Originally Posted by Theognome

I have to agree with Tim. I have yet to see an ADD situation that was not based in a lack of selfdiscipline, perhaps caused by a lack of godly discipline earlier in life. The Word teaches us how to deal with such issues, but the world, who is in rebellion to such truth, will gladly find a word/disease/syndrome to make the individual a victim instead of a sinner. Chemicals and concessions are the methods used to deal with sin by the unfaithful seeking to be God. Obedience is the command of our Lord, to the embarrassment of the establishment of psychological 'science'.

Theognome

Bill, I pray you NEVER see any serious mental illness manifest in your family: it ain't pretty. And it is very very real. ADD and ADHD are rare (they are way overdiagnosed IMNSHO) but the real thing is a handicap. The parents have and continue to do everything that they can but the kids need the Ritalin to be functional.

Actually, my family is riddled with it. Coincidentally, my family is also riddled with unbelief. In my family, such conditions are justified through medical diagnosis. In the godly families I know, the problem either does not exist or, if phyisical proof of the condition is paramount, the afflicted conscienciously strive to overcome said condition in Christ. Note that I have one cousin who actually pulled off the insanity plea for the murder of his mother, so I'm not very sympathetic towards this issue.

Theognome

The best biblical counselors do recognize the difference between "sin nature" and a biological condition (Schizophrenia, psychosis and FAE/FAS) as Adam stated. It appears you are saying that a Christian family with a Schizophrenic child will have the child "overcome the condition through Christ" and NOT seek medical attention?

Originally Posted by Albatross

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

At what point should electric shock therapy be considered?

If we use the Pentateuch's law for rebellious sons, then the electric chair (or stoning) should be used when the cycle of adolescent rebellion is completed.

Theognome

Can you explain this more?

Certainly. Consider Deuteronomy 21:18-21...

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.


In a Godly home, where the child has been raised up in the fear and admonition of the Lord in accordance to the Scriptures, and they refuse to be productive members of the community, they are to be cast out as opposed to medicated and molly-coddled. It is interesting that if you look at the symptoms of ADD and the folks diagnosed with it, rebelliousness, drunkeness (or drug abuse, same thing) and other similar issues mentioned in the passage above are almost always in tandem with the ADD behaviour. What is missing in the vast majority of the ADD cases is the upraising in the fear and admonition of the Lord. But where that has been done, there is no excuse.

Theognome

-----Added 2/18/2009 at 12:01:52 EST-----

Originally Posted by calgal

The best biblical counselors do recognize the difference between "sin nature" and a biological condition (Schizophrenia, psychosis and FAE/FAS) as Adam stated. It appears you are saying that a Christian family with a Schizophrenic child will have the child "overcome the condition through Christ" and NOT seek medical attention?

No, I did not say that (Gee, I seem to be misunderstood alot tonight). I'm not a Christian Scientist who believes that all of medicine is wrong. But I did say that in a Christian family and dealing with a Christian sufferer, there will be progress and a willingness by the afflicted to overcome the physical issues. However, where Christ is lacking, surrender and/or apathy will reign.

The problem is that most psychological diagnoses are subjective. They don not include consistent objective testing. It's based on observation according to the experts experience and education. If there is a medical test to verify a condition then it is no longer psychological, it's medical. The very term "psychological" deals with the soul. Second Timothy means exactly what it says.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Medical doctors deal with the body. Pastors deal with the soul. If a psychologist finds a medical issue he refers the patient to a medical doctor. Otherwise it's a spiritual problem. Consider, before responding, that chemical imbalances are physical problems, must be testable objectively and can be treated by a medical doctor.

Originally Posted by lynnie

I would start by calling the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation

CCEF | Restoring Christ to Counseling and Counseling to the Church

and asking if they have any relevant materials. Maybe somebody like Ed Welch (Blame it on the Brain) has something recent on dealing with bipolars.

I know one who had "no control" over his behaviour. A friend asked if he could stop if somebody gave him a million dollars or put a gun to his head and he said "of course." . I know a severely out of control ADD kid on mega doses of ritalin and other stuff who suddenly-voila- for the very first time in his life started to obey and act calm/normal when at age 12 his Dad gave him the first whipping of his life.

I don't want to get jumped on here for my insensitivity to this alleged chemical brain trouble, but I've known 3 bipolars and they all need to get in a time machine and go back to age 3 and get a good whacking on the rear with a wooden spoon. I'll never ever believe this stuff is uncontrollable. Please at least seek some good imput from CCEF type biblical counselors who can give you some wisdom on how to deal with it in love and truth both.

Have you ever met someone with severe disabilities? While it may be that discipline is lacking in some people, it may be that there are real problems with others. My son did not speak until he was 3 years old. He is now 5. He has pervasive developmental delays that are mostly in the area of language and communication. He can repeat sentences he hears (including long passages from veggie tales and other videos), but he still has some trouble with "yes" and "no" and understanding which is which. He still does not get first and second person pronouns right (uses "you" when he means "me"). What you are inferring is that everyone that has any problem has to be because of disciplinary problems rather than other problems. Do you not believe that the body is fallen as well as the mind? If someone can't understand what they are being told (they cannot put it into their own words and repeat it back to you) then how do you determine they are being disobedient?

Sure, there are cases where a person is using a disability as an excuse for not trying as hard as they might. But that is NO excuse for thinking the worship of God is only for those that can sit still and "behave". Jesus wanted the little children brought to him, and for 4 of the 5 children God has blessed me with, they learned early and quickly that worship is to be a place of quiet and consideration for others. It took discipline, and often involved removing them from the service for the good of others. The exception does exist ... the child that just does not understand even why they would be receiving discipline. Does the church (the body of Christ) devalue that individual member? Do they presume that is not one for whom Jesus died? Is that person relegated to the outside the worship? (Don't presume that "piping in the sermon" is what worship is, it isn't. It is all of what is bracketed by the call to worship ending with the benediction.)

While the man may be disruptive, there are ways of helping that do not discard. If he is truly facing a situation in which it is beyond his control, then would you call him a sinner? If an epileptic was a member of the congregation, and had seizures during the service, would you tell them they were not allowed to be in the service? If you answer you would prohibit him from the service (even if you gave an excuse of "for his own safety") I would think that you were worried more about your own experience in the service than the worship of God. The worship service is to God, not us.

It may be that this man should have a place to calm down when he is disruptive. It might be that a deacon should be assigned to assist him. It would seem that if the problem is medical, and drugs do not fully control it, that it is a physical problem, not a spiritual problem.

A pertinent discussion from a few years ago.

Schizophrenia

My Nephew once ate part of a Church Bulletin. I looked over and saw him chewing on something , I said:"What are you eating?" "NOTHING!" "Don't lie boy, open your mouth!" WAD of paper in that fool kids mouth! I told him to swallow, he did then about 5 minutes later he puked it up. A lady behind us said poor dear! What's the matter? I said :"He was chewing on a a bulletin! I made him swallow it." She goes: You should be LOCKED up!" I said "Why me lady, I know better than to eat paper."I don't really have any suggestions or solutions for this case, I had not thought about that in a long time and it just made me remember that. Sorry.

I would say if the church has no probs with a baby crying in church or a the sounds of small children who don't understand than they should be equally as understanding of a grown man with a mental disablility...that said I like the suggestion that someone sit with him and give him a signal if he becomes to loud.

One thing that seems to be the case in a lot of people is that they have a lot more faith in doctors to be able to diagnose what the cause is of a problem than what I have seen. Before there were microscopes, bacteria were unknown, but still caused a lot of diseases that killed. While there are some seizure disorders for which a "cause" is known, there are just as many for which the cause is unknown and at this time unknowable. Some people hallucinate for no apparent reason (medical science has not yet found out why). One of the more famous cases is that of John Nash ... why he had recurrent hallucinations nobody knows. That he did is not questioned. At this time medical science cannot tell us the why for some diseases (that is there is no quantifiable, measurable, deviation from "normal" but there is a well documented difference to what is happening within the mind.)

If we acknowledge seizures without being able to quantify them other than electrical activity in the brain (which is what all behavior starts as) do we really want to say there are no other things which we have not found the cause for yet?

Sinful behavior (directly violating the commands of God) is one thing. We can say without a doubt that someone that attacks another person, even if they were acting because of hallucination, is sinning in the attack (voices telling someone to do something don't give an excuse for wrong behavior). But before we rise to condemn someone for actions that are inconvenient we better be able to defend those condemnations to the God by whom we will be judged.

Mental illness is that: illness. I'm frankly amazed at some of the ignorance that is being shown on this thread. My family is riddled with severe and not so severe bi-polar disorder. There is a strong genetic component to the disorder. When I was younger I refused to believe that it was a real disorder. Somehow it must be a contrived or imagined condition. I was wrong. Bi-polar may be overdiagnosed at times. But, genuine bipolar exists. And, no, the affected person can't just 'get a grip' once a mania or depressive mood begins. No, discipleship won't cure it or enable them to 'get a grip'. Neither will counseling alone. And, you can't just throw lithium at it either. It takes work with the body (medicine), mind (therapy), and relationships (family and church). There isn't a simple solution. And, no, it is not an issue of people being weak Christians or unbelievers. Most of the people in my family with bipolar are devout Christians. Bipolar disorder is most often found among the extremely intelligent and creative, by the way. The general population doesn't understand it; and the church, on the whole, surely doesn't.

And, just so you know. Some of the cases in my family are so bad that they have become lifelong clinical case studies. You wouldn't want to know the details. It would ruin your day. It might just ruin your week.

If this read like a rant, I make no apology. Some things are worth ranting about.

What should this church do? It is hard to give specific advice, but they shouldn't just shun him. Tim's advice is good. The elders must help this family. Otherwise they are not fulfilling their call. If it had not been for godly elders in our church when I was growing up, most likely my family would not exist. Literally.

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Tell him that the church has had trouble with people disrupting the service. Then, ask him if he would be willing to sit in the back and watch for such disturbances. If someone speaks or makes any commotion, he could write down the time, where they sat, what they were wearing and what the incident entailed. Explain that the church would rather have the leadership deal with the matter, but that it would be appreciated if he could help monitor because disturbances during the services distract people from focusing on God as we all should. He then could hand in his report at the end of services.

If the man is truly bipolar, this would be the last thing you want to do; especially if he is not in a managed state.

Would this fall under the jurisdiction of the deacons?

I am somewhat saddened that no one has suggested that this man be taken in prayer before the king of the universe -- surely God can distinguish between what is physical in need of healing and what is spiritual in need of grace.

If the problems continue, as far as what the church can do, I like the idea of trying to get the guy involved with a specific responsibility. Its very possible that he craves attention and actually pushes attention away by his behavior creating a sad cycle.

At some point, the church may have to make a decision about whether or not this individual is welcomed in the service. I read recently of a church (in Canada I think) that would not permit an autistic teen to be on church grounds after he attacked several church members. We have to ask outselves if a line has been crossed that puts too much attention on the individual when our aim is to worship God.

Originally Posted by jwithnell

I am somewhat saddened that no one has suggested that this man be taken in prayer before the king of the universe -- surely God can distinguish between what is physical in need of healing and what is spiritual in need of grace.

If the problems continue, as far as what the church can do, I like the idea of trying to get the guy involved with a specific responsibility. Its very possible that he craves attention and actually pushes attention away by his behavior creating a sad cycle.

At some point, the church may have to make a decision about whether or not this individual is welcomed in the service. I read recently of a church (in Canada I think) that would not permit an autistic teen to be on church grounds after he attacked several church members. We have to ask outselves if a line has been crossed that puts too much attention on the individual when our aim is to worship God.

I assumed that the man had been brought to the Lord in prayer. This is a church we are talking about, isn't it?

I can tell you from quite a bit of first hand experience, if the man is not in a managed stable condition one of the worst things you could do is give him the type of responsibility that has been described. It would most likely aggravate the condition rather than help him; especially if he is in a manic condition.

This congregation, if it want's to help, must work with the family to encourage (and if necessary use legal resources) to get the man Christian professional help as a starting place. Then they must commit to a long term relationship with this family to help them. The situation is worth the effort.

I'm not insensitive to this. But what's diagnosed as bipolar today may be found to be a virus tomorrow. It might be a pituitary issue. It might be genetic (apparent link). But there is either a physical or spiritual issue causing it. Sure, certain drugs help calm the disorder/illness, whatever you want to call it. But the ones doing the treatment really don't know what they're doing, except that they see certain things work in certain situations with at least a reasonable amount of consistency.
Here's part of the problem. "There are no lab tests or other procedures for diagnosing Bipolar Disorder." Also, "While the causes of Bipolar Disorder are still unknown, the symptoms are thought to be triggered by an imbalance of some key chemicals in the brain." Simply put, the tests are not objective. One might diagnose someone with bipolar disorder, another says they're schizophrenic and another says something else. You can't take blood and figure it out. You can't run a scan. All you can do is observe, take data and look for consistencies. Then you make guesses as to what causes it and try to treat it. Sometimes something works. Often it seems to, but is just making it worse. And, often, these diagnoses are simply ways of covering and drugging sin.
Ritalin is a great example. Take a kid, shove him in a classroom, feed him sugar all day and let him play video games when he's home. Hey, how come this kid can't sit still? I've even heard of a kid being diagnosed with ADHD because his leg wiggled. They even have a name for that, some sort of syndrome. So, this kid's on ritalin for years, never learning how to really cope with life. Then, they take him off of it, he can't handle life and so ends it. The experts claim that he needed the medicine when actually they're the ones that stripped him of any ability to grow through the problem and made an addict out of him.
And, yes, we have mental illnesses in our family as well. But they're more readily clear as a form of retardation, with clear physical issues.

One might diagnose someone with bipolar disorder, another says they're schizophrenic and another says something else

Only in severe manic cases will this happen. And, it becomes apparent rather quickly once treatment begins that the case has been misdiagnosed.

It amazes me that people will readily admit that every organ in the body can have medical problems, but when it comes to the most complex organ, the brain, that is off limits to it having medical problems.

Wannabee;

Tell him that the church has had trouble with people disrupting the service. Then, ask him if he would be willing to sit in the back and watch for such disturbances. If someone speaks or makes any commotion, he could write down the time, where they sat, what they were wearing and what the incident entailed. Explain that the church would rather have the leadership deal with the matter, but that it would be appreciated if he could help monitor because disturbances during the services distract people from focusing on God as we all should. He then could hand in his report at the end of services.

Why not just ask if he could take notes of the sermon, as opposed to watching for other disturbances? It would be more helpful if he could write notes on the sermon that he could hand in later so that the Elders could see what He is understanding..then he could be encouraged to use those notes to discuss the sermon with his children later.

If the man is truly bipolar, this would be the last thing you want to do; especially if he is not in a managed state.

I agree, if he goes into a manic state, he could get violent against those who are seen as 'disruptive', and that could cause even more problems within the body.

If he really is bi-polar and ADHD is he on medication? If not, why not?

calgal;

Bill, I pray you NEVER see any serious mental illness manifest in your family: it ain't pretty. And it is very very real. ADD and ADHD are rare (they are way overdiagnosed IMNSHO) but the real thing is a handicap. The parents have and continue to do everything that they can but the kids need the Ritalin to be functional.

The key thing here being is that it is over diagnosed..When in fact many of those who are diagnosed with these things a good spanking would change their behavior..

Years ago, when my oldest daughter was in elementary school, every single child in our neighborhood (with the exception of a those who were not Military dependents, and their parents did not work for the government in some way) were tested and diagnosed w/ ADD/ADHD or some type of learning disability. The school got more money from the Government that way..

I babysat most of these kids every day after school, and they were no different than the one's who were not diagnosed..except their parents didn't discipline them, but when I disciplined them, they straightened up. They would come hang out at my house even when I wasn't babysitting, even knowing there were things they couldn't get away with..at home their parents would just medicate them and send them to their rooms, instead of disciplining them..even if it was just a sibling spat.."oh your acting up, you need your medication."

So yes, I agree, it is way over diagnosed..when in many cases it is just a matter of kids needing to be disciplined..

Brian-

Please let me clarify my thinking.

My daughter was adopted before age 3 from a condition of severe neglect and malnutrition( Romania). During 3rd grade we had her fully tested and she has central auditory processing disorder, which happens with neglect or maybe severe infant ear infections. The brain does not wire properly. She acts normal when you talk to her, but concentration in the presence of sound is terrible.

The testing hooks earphones to the ears and does a battery of tests. In one, they ask questions into one ear and the child answers. Mine scores 100%. They then add talking or street noise, etc into the other ear and a normal child separates them out and continues to answer. My daughter flunks.

Then sentences are broken into syllables or parts and half played into each ear. A normal kid hears it as a fluid sentence. To my girl it is gibberish. It is like no depth perception with the eyes.

There are things I allow with her I'd never have allowed with her four older brothers. They were forbidden to ignore us when we spoke to them. With her, it can look like arrogant disrespect, but I know that the piano is going in one room, birds are singing outside, and hubby is talking to a brother, and her brain just isn't hearing me. I have to get her attention first.

She gets distracted constantly in church ( drives the SS teacher crazy sometimes). I had to homeschool- they said everytime somebody dropped a pencil or whispered she lost focus. If a baby starts up during the responsive reading, she loses focus. I know she misses part of every sermon.

Yes, there are brain issues. I don't mean to say things can't be part of the wiring.

But-this is vital- what the bible calls sin you must call sin. This is where the authority of scripture prevails. The bi polar guy I referred to if he went off his meds could go into a screaming cursing angry rage. He said it was chemical. Sorry, but it is sin.

The other two bi polars I knew briefly were females. Rebellious, whiney, self centered, undisciplined, etc. Yeah the meds helped, it mellowed their moods. Does that mean when I smoked pot and a hash pipe in the 70s and it mellowed my moods that I needed a chemical? Or did I need the Lord? My parents never spanked me and I was an arrogant rebellious teenager planning suicide...was that chemical?

Depression....if we fail to obey the biblical command to rejoice and be grateful, is that the brain or sin? Have you ever seen a severely depressed person who expresses appreciation in your presence for food, hot water, gasoline, dental care, and 1000 other things 85% of the world does not even have? Isn't that sin? I've known some people in depressions and the first words that come to mind are self pity and unbelief. Yeah they might perk up with sunlight and exercise and an SSRI, but let's call sin sin where it fits.

I agree that there is a big difference between a wiggly little boy and an angry or depressed adult. I don't like putting ADD and bi polar in the same category.

I don't have all the answers, but the intitial post about the disruptive guy sure sounds like sin to me.

Anyway, I still think CCEF is a good place to start research. They have a lot of wisdom and balance while affirming the authority of scripture.

This is an interesting thread. My pastor and elders seem to be masters at dealing with disruptive people. We have in our church a number of elderly folk who come from the nursing home down the street. They get up in the middle of the service to use the restroom, they speak out in the service at inappropiate moments and make comments and prayer requests during Bible studies that have absolutely nothing to do with what is being said.

Here is how much pastor and elders handle these people--the love of Christ. They treat these folks like everyone else, and when they discover how well they are loved, the disruptive behavior (for the most part) almost comes to an end. When one of these folks makes a comment that doesn't fit in with the discussion, he simply thanks them for their contribution, when they ask for prayer requests, he prays for them. He gives them the kind of love and attention that anyone would want.

I have learned from his example, and these people that were so difficult and unlovely to me at the beginning are now people that I miss when they are away. They add to our worship, they add to our body of believers. I love them as much as anyone else.

As far as people with more disruptive disorders, I think the approach should be the same. Show them the love of Christ. My