Thank you. Apology accepted.

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Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

Ivan, what is your perspective on my questions? You were one of the people in particular that I wanted to hear from.

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Fellow PBer's,

Is there anyway to agree that the prophet Isaiah's words will bring this argument under a little more biblical light as he stated "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. " Isa 55:8-9?

I was saved while attending a SBC church and have served as deacon in the SBC for 15 plus years, and I never saw the likes of the Arminainism spoken of here. Yes over the years the SBC has fallen into the seeker sensitive gospel lite, and this is one reason why I have left the SBC, but I still believe the SBC proclaims salvation in Christ alone and not by works. This argument has been around for almost 500 years now and no one has proven to me the correct answer except God Almighty through Isaiah. His ways are not ours. We should denounce salvation by works boldly but also be careful not to lump those in who may not evangelize in the same way we prefer. We must be careful to point a finger at a brother in Christ and claim heresy when God tells us we won't always understand all His ways.

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Rick
Teacher/Apologist
Baptist
SE Missouri

Well, throw rocks at SBC if you wish, but before I was saved the ONLY ones who ever shared the gospel with me were Southern Baptist. I've never had anyone from the reformed persuasion knock on my door or even at act like they were interested in knowing if I knew Christ. I know there are those that do, but SBCers reach people with the gospel, which IS the power of God unto salvation (hmmmm, that's in the Bible I think). They don't to try make people Calvinist or any other "ist." Calvinism is not the the power of God unto salvation.
When I was saved, I didn't know election/Calvinism from a hole in the ground, yet I was a follower of Christ. I learned of my election later, yet I was still just as saved.

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Ralph
Pastor
Valera Baptist Church
Valera, Texas

Andrew, I've been a Southern Baptist since I was almost 16 years old. I attended a Sunday School of the same Southern Baptist Church prior to that. I've broaden my perspective considerably since than. I've been in contact with many Christians from many different denominations, not all that I agree with. Still, I look for ways to interact with them.

Almost the same could be said within the SBC. There are some SBC churches that are very much like the ones that have been portrayed in a negative light here. There are some who are more Calvinistic than many Presbyterian churches.

I'm not interested in finding out how different I am than other Christians. I want to find out what I have in common. With that I see if I can cooperate and have a relationship with others.

If we want to finely define very jot and tittle and every nook and cranny of every single doctrine to make positively sure that we are in line with every possible subject we will soon find ourselves "enjoying" the company of no one and will be very, very alone.

I choose to find how I can work with others rather than how I can avoid others.

I like your perspective, Ivan. Thank you. The questions in my original post were questions that a local pastor asked me. I suggested something very similar to what you said in defense of a local SBC pastor. However, the pastor responded by saying that as a whole the SBC is weak on the gospel because as a whole there is so much semi-Pelagianism. He said there is no good reason to stay connected since that would be like supporting their weak-gospel cause. Thus, it would be best to leave the camp. I didn't have much of an answer. What are your thoughts on that concern?

Despite what some individual churches might believe, the SBC's statement of faith, is at the very least a mildly Calvinist document. Notice, that among other things, that they have regeneration preceding rather than resulting from, repentance and faith...

"A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

It also tends towards Covenant theology, rather than dispensationalism.

The fact is, that their doctrine is spot on the money (though rather vague on some points; rightly so, I believe). It is actually impossible to be a full fledged Arminian (or even predominantly) and agree with the BF& M. And you do not kick people out of fellowship because of mild doctrinal disagreements.

Just my

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Damon Rambo
Southern Baptist Convention
Member of Brazosport Baptist Temple, South Texas
Youth Pastor/Evangelist

Straight Walk Ministries is my home.

Damon's reply covers it well. I'd say, "Don't throw out the baby with the bath wash".

Very well said Ralph.

I am no longer a Southern Baptist ... used to be a long time ago. While I can see someone leaving, I think leaving a church (or a denomination) is a serious matter that ought to be carefully considered. If a church is part of an association, there is little to nothing that the "denomination" can push on the local congregation from above (almost nothing from what I remember) and so the local church is almost completely autonomous in practice. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this was one of the key points of congregationalism.)

So then it comes down to what good/harm does it do to stay and what good/harm does it do to leave. I don't see much harm being done no matter what. The denomination seems a toothless lion that has no real bite (again, correct me if I'm wrong, it has been a long time since I was in a SBC church). What good does it do to remain? Might have an overall effect at being salt and light in a dark place. What harm does it do to leave? It removes more of those that know the truth.

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Brian Withnell
Deacon, OPC
Leesburg, Virginia

You cannot train for war in the midst of a battle. Prepare before the battle starts; if the battle is long and hard, you will wish you had.