I've heard it mentioned numerous times that Sabbatarians are disappointed in those churches that do not accept their Sabbatarian practices, as in the church doesn't make an effort to accommodate their keeping of the Sabbath.

I probably didn't do the best job summarizing that viewpoint, but hopefully you get the gist.

Can you please flesh out that line of thought? Are you talking about when you visit a church? What do you expect a church to do?

__________________
Daniel
PCA
Memphis, TN

If they are a Confessional church, follow their confession. If not, to consider the claims of Scripture (see below):

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Particularly as a visitor:
I expect a congregation to show hospitality in the form of meals and fellowship. Table fellowship should be a no-brainer if I am invited to the fellowship of the Lord's Table.

As a member of a local congregation:
I expect the consistory/session to ordinarily call the congregation to worship twice during the Lord's Day. This helps to orient the day around the worship of God.

It is also much easier to observe the Sabbath when there is a culture of hospitality in the congregation. Households should share meals and fellowship during the day with other members of the congregation and visitors.

I also expect a congregation to hold me and my house accountable. The consistory should inquire about absence from the Lord's worship. I want to be able to go to my elders and minister with difficult questions about Sabbath observance for wise counsel. God's Law should be expounded so that I may be convicted of my sins and repent.

A faithful congregation should also provide for those who are financially suffering because of their observance of the 4th commandment.

__________________
Bryan Peters
Providence Reformed Church (URCNA)
Des Moines, Iowa

Doctrinal truth should be preached always, openly, without compromise, and never dissembled or concealed. There is no offence in it; it is the staff of uprightness.
~Martin Luther~

Let's say the church is Confessional (which I believe mine is). Is that it?

Daniel,
From a practical standpoint, it would include things like not catering in a congregational meal (which requires others to work and/or miss worship) or paying nursery workers during gathering times on Sunday. I've seen both of these in practice. I would also hope folks would not pressure Sabbatarian families to eat out after Sunday worship, which I've also seen.

__________________
Anna
Wife of Tim/Marrow Man
Louisville, KY
Member of Midlane Park Presbyterian (Associate Reformed Presbyterian)

But what does this actually look like? I'm trying to imagine what my church would need to do to meet this need. Does there have to be a meal provided after the service? Does there need to be an announcement each week that visiting Sabbatarians are invited to the pastor's home?

I more than certain that if a visitor approached our pastor and said they needed a place to eat, that person would be taken care of. But who's initiative is it?

Daniel,
We attempt to invite every visitor back to our home for lunch. Now, we're a smaller congregation than you, I suspect. Larger congregations that practice this often employ a few/several families willing to invite families. We don't always have folks who accept (for various reasons), but we've provided the opportunity and those who accept are grateful.

Our most recent trio of out-of-state Gideons lunched with us and said they are rarely even invited out, much less to a home for lunch. We had a wonderful afternoon.

Your church is confessional.

The Presbyterian Church in America subscribes to the Westminster Standards (Confession of Faith, Larger and Shorter Catechisms).

Basically, the confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture to require in relation to the Lord's Day:

1) advance preparation (getting out of the way ordinary tasks that would distract from worship such as getting gas, money from the teller, groceries, etc.)

2) abstaining from entertaining and recreating oneself (not playing sports, going to ball games, and not thinking or talking about them)

3) abstaining from work (and not thinking about or talking about your work)


This, in order to prioritize the worship of God, all day.

This, in order to cease from the ordinary pursuits of life in order to have focused time to worship God through His Word, prayer, sacraments, singing spiritual songs, fasting, taking religious oaths and vows (e.g. membership, baptism, officer, etc.).

I will approach a minister on my own initiative if needed. However, visitors should automatically be extended an invitation to meals by someone. This could be accomplished by a corporate meal after the services. This could also be accomplished by a rotating schedule of households hosting visitors for meals. On a more informal basis, the officers could simply agree to be aware of visitors' meal plans and extend invitations if other members of the congregation have not.

Nothing. I require nothing of my congregation or any other in order for me to observe the Sabbath other than an opportunity to worship God corporately.

If I visited your church Daniel, and I have a few times, I would need nothing from you, your elders, or your congregation in order for me to observe the Sabbath in a faithful manner, other than an opportunity to worship God in corporate worship.

I really don't understand what the hub-bub is about. Why does a Sabbatarian need something from the congregation in order to be a Sabbatarian?

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

I'm a weak and sinful man who needs the strength of the Body of Christ to begin this pitifully small obedience in this life.

Not sure I fully understand all the implications of this passage
Heb 13:1-3

Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. 3 Remember the prisoners as if chained with them — those who are mistreated — since you yourselves are in the body also. NKJV

But whatever it is I don't want to miss it.

I think there should be a notice that visitors who do not have friends or relatives to eat with are welcome to contact the pastor or elders or deacons who have families who will desire to provide hospitality and meals for the Lord's day.

Or an announcement or in our church we have a laminated shee tin the pews with basic info on our worship and fencing the table. It could be in there also.

I usually call ahead and ask the pastor if there are some willing and could he set this up, someone to pick me up at the hotel and bring me to and from the worship and lunch. Unless I have already rented a car for the days I am there.

I have never been refused even where the minister has taken an exception and does not hold the Lord's day this strictly. I always let them know I am willing to pay for the gas for the family that carts me around and I especially let him know if there are poor families who would like to help out but are financially unable I would be willing to buy the food for the family that day if they will host me.
I love to assist poor families to help me as I help them.

Perhaps this comes from being in Mexico and Africa where our eating with them would be a burden.
Of course it is not neeeeded, But it should be the desire of other brothers and sisters to provide this.
I love to get the chance to have visitors over on the Lord's day

__________________
DonP

It's understandable using a term like this.

One of the things that will also be helpful in understanding this is that keeping the fourth commandment is not a separate set of beliefs- it is a part of the whole moral law God commands all men to follow.

The Confessions (e.g. London Baptist and Westminster) summarize Scripture to teach all ten commandments, not isolating four, or any other.

So someone is no more a 'sabbatarian" by following the fourth commandment than a 'covetarian' by following the tenth commandment, they are only trying to faithfully represent and be obedient to the revealed will of God [through His Word].

We aren't Sabbatearians anyway. Sabbath is seventh.
That was the OT Jewish admin of the 4th command
We are Firstitarians.

We are keepers of the 4th command. Keepers of the Lord's day as it is in the New Testament

Scott,
I agree with you. I don't like the term "Sabbatarian", and in other threads I have questioned its use. I only used it because many on here insist on calling themselves such, as if to say that the rest of us do not follow the 4th commandment.

I believe I DO follow the 4th commandment, even though I take exception to the WCF on this issue. My practice is definitely out of line with the WCF regarding the Sabbath, but I believe I am in line with Scripture.

While I agree with you, Andrew, it is certainly helpful when I am invited to lunch. A lunch invitation removes all temptation to eat in the cafeteria or accept a non-Sabbatarian's invitation to go to brunch. But then, I like to spend Sunday afternoon reading, whether alone or in company, so it isn't difficult for me to figure out what to do with my day. I look forward to having time to read my Bible and other books without feeling that I should be reading a casebook! However, some Sabbatarians are more starved for company, and it is much more difficult to fellowship regularly with non-Sabbatarians, who may want to eat out or shop or something.

__________________
Evie B.
New Members Class, RPCNA, Cambridge, Massachusetts

Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. -- Isaiah 43:18-19 (ESV)

Daniel,
I agree with the others-- I don't "need" these things from a congregation. But I might not make one my home that chooses commercial enterprise on Sunday. Because we don't want to put anyone else in a similar position, we offer hospitality. When Tim preaches elsewhere on Sunday (rare, but it happens), we lunch in the home of friends.

I wonder how often this actually happens.

__________________
William F. Hill, Jr.
Immanuel Presbyterian Church, (PCA)
Norfolk, Va.

I guess I'm not used to these churches where everyone goes to restaurants afterward and they invite visitors to go with them. While my church isn't making a special announcement to invite "Sabbatarians" to someone's home, there is a good amount of hospitality going on. My pastor is almost always having people over to his house on Sunday, as are many of the elders. If you make yourself known as a regular visitor, your chances are good to eventually end up in someone's home.
As for out of town visitors, I don't see why you can't just call ahead of time. We'd bend over backwards to extend hospitality. But in a church of 400-500, it's kind of hard to pick out everyone who is a visitor and make sure they have a place to eat. In my opinion, the person visiting needs to take the initiative if they feel that strongly about it.

-----Added 4/14/2009 at 12:52:34 EST-----

I guess I'm naive. How are people financially suffering because of the 4th commandment?

Do you mean the provision by a congregation or the financial suffering?

In contemporary American society, it is becoming more and more difficult to refrain from work on Sundays. This is especially true for unskilled workers who don't have much to bargain with in the first place.

If your elders can't determine visitors from members, that may be a different problem than hospitality.

Hospitality is to be extended, not requested, in my humble opinion.

Those who work jobs other than 9-5 M-F may have given up shifts on Sundays. When I worked retail, I could have made far more money, but I requested not to be on the schedule for Sundays. I wasn't trying to feed a family, but someone working retail these days could very well be trying to do just that.

Some wonderful ideas have been expressed in this thread. Inviting visitors home for a meal should be widely practiced by all churches that love Christ.

Back to the OP. At a minimum a church should not be antagonistic towards individuals who observe the Christian Sabbath. Respect their conviction. Those who observe the Sabbath should do so quitely, and without drawing attention to themselves. "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men" comes to mind. If you are in the habit of honoring the Lord's Day, allow God to bring others into your path that you may instruct them gently. This especially true in churches that do not promote observing the Lord's Day.

If I may add, those churches that do promote observance of the Lord's Day should be mindful not to bind the conscience of visitors who are not informed or convicted in that area. We are all in the process of learning and growing. Be aggressive in guarding the conscience of your brother.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

Thanks.

The effects of the second part of what you are saying is, in our denomination, as a member, you are not required to have comprehensive knowledge of your doctrinal standards, far less vow agreement with every statement/proposition in them.

I've come to learn here on Puritan Board some reformed denominations would require such for membership, but our denomination, the PCA, does not require that for membership. It does require that for church officers, but not for members.

The membership vows include peaceably learning the church's doctrine. That is, humbly studying (not trying to create faction, defiance, or dissent) and learning the doctrinal standards.

Along those lines, I would commend to you the scripture proofs above (to the Westminster Confession) to see if what you now believe is in accordance with what God commands in His Word.

Maybe the Westminster Divines got this all wrong. Maybe the framers of the London Baptist Confession of Faith got it all wrong as well. But, we ought give serious consideration to their biblical basis in summarizing the doctrine of Scripture this way.

What does God require of us in "setting apart" the day to make it holy? Does he allow us to do, think about, talk about the sports, entertainment that amuses us, and our work issues on His day as long as we slip in one church service?

What does Scripture teach?

Yes but all Christians are required to obey the 4th command.
So how would you do this and have a job on the Lord's day, or support those who do?

It would also be a difficult situation for me if one invited me over for lunch them turned on a Professional football or other sports game on TV or wanted to go shopping on the way home.

And Rather than just accept them as they are I would feel compelled to ask them if they believed they were obeying the 4th command.

I would bear with this, but the courtesy for the visiting who keep the 4th Commandment would be to know the convictions of these people and respect them that day you are serving them

Could we not tear ourselves away one day from these worldly things to serve a brother of stricter convictions?

No demands on other just think

Rom 12:10-13
10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
NKJV


Also Ex Nihilo won't read her case work on the Lord's day so she has 1/7 less time to do her school work and get good grades. This leaves her more work to do during the week and less time to go work to cover expenses.

Fortunately God has all this planned out for His people so it is not an excuse ro an inconvenience.
Only a chance for God to manifest his grace on us.

So we may not prosper as much in this world as the wicked. So what?
And we may by His grace prosper more.

Our elders most certainly can determine visitors from members, but that is quite a different issue than tracking down the visitors each week. I'm not sure how it is at most churches, but our elders are not patrolling the pews or anything like that. We have people who are specifically looking for visitors each week, but it is still quite easy for someone to slip in and slip out unnoticed. That said, if a visitor makes their presence known, I'm quite certain they will receive hospitality.


Certainly, but we're talking about different things. It's one thing to be hospitable; it's another to make sure that everyone has a place to eat lunch each Sunday.

-----Added 4/14/2009 at 02:57:04 EST-----

Are you sure about that? I thought that church officers in the PCA could take exceptions to some of the WCF.

Right. It's one thing to learn and study the doctrine, but it's another to accept all of it as right. I feel like I understand what the WCF is saying regarding the Sabbath, but I just don't agree. I think the WCF as a whole is excellent, but is not always accurate.

I've read the proofs, and I just read through them again. I think the WCF takes the 4th commandment further than Scripture.

In this case, I think they did. In one sense, it's incredibly hard to bluntly say that seeing how they were much more wise and learned than my pea brain. But I still think they took it too far, based on Scripture.
I know this is essentially heresy to many, but I don't think the Puritans or Westminster Divines lived in an exceptionally enlightening time or had some great source of wisdom that we don't have today. They were fallible. Wise, yes, but fallible.

When I first started attending a reformed church I was working weekends at a retail store. After learning about keeping the Lord's day I prayed for a while about my situation and marched up to my manager's office and humbly asked if he would allow me to not work on Sundays so that I could worship. He kindly obliged my request and after that any place I have worked for I have told them up front at the interview process that I am unavailable on Sundays and havnt had a difficulty since.

__________________
Josiah Lovett
Member of
Trinity OPC
Bothell WA
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Westminster Standards

Please see below

Yes, the Westminster Divines were fallible human beings. Many of them were church officers and accomplished theologians of their day, though. And yes, the Confessional standards are not infallible. Only Scripture is infallible.

But collectively, they were focused on defining the Christian faith from Scripture in the face of their own great persecution. The Westminster Confession has withstood centuries of scrutiny.

Many of us stand in amazement at how well, how precisely they summarize the doctrine of Scripture.

So what would you say is minimally required?

The other thing I think is interesting, if a minister takes and exception to some part of the Confession this does not mean all the elders in the church will or should.

Therefore the elders may hold the church to things the minister may not.

Of course I would suggest the elders stop employing minister who take exceptions. This would mean waiting a while until you find Confessional men but good.
Then these non-Confessional men will not have jobs or pulpits until they submit and Conform to the desires of their brothers and the mind of the greater church rather than being able to be independent.

They will not be able to breed more non-Confessional men and this way we restore the church; rather than allow it to repeat itself as happened to the Pres Church initially in the USA where we lost our buildings and seminaries to men who eventually became liberal.

I'm a little concerned that your language here is serious. Is that right?
"Breed more non-confessional men"????

This kind of language implies that the Confession is the ultimate authority.

There are a few members here who attend Churches that are open all day and evening (example: 9am to 6 pm.) I find that to be a great idea, and causes no one to have to volunteer to open their home or worry that a visitor might be missed. I'm not a sabbatarian and this idea appeals to me greatly yet I've spoken to and heard from strict sabbatarians who don't like the idea...odd (imo)

__________________
Adam - Pennsylvania - Baptist

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/p...5655012&ref=nf

Daniel,
If visitors are deliberately trying to slip in and out, they're not looking for an invitation to lunch, I imagine. You say you have folks available to engage visitors; they could simply extend the invitation on behalf of their family or the families who have offered to prepare a meal for guests.

We get less than fifty percent of our visitors who accept the invitation. But we've extended the hospitality, which is our responsibility, not that of our guests.

If your heart isn't it, it isn't hospitality--it's a duty, and people can sense the difference.

I'm not sure I can give you a simple answer to that. The day is to be set apart, and clearly it is not a day for work. The minimal requirements are what is laid out in scripture. Nothing more.

I know it's popular on PB to come up with a list of what is and what is not allowed, but I don't think the Sabbath is that simple.

The pieces about our words and thoughts cannot be about work or recreation is, in my opinion, extra-biblical. As well as the whole of the day being in public and private worship.

Well, nine hours of socializing is exhausting for someone who is even mildly introverted. Maybe some people feel that having church all day makes it difficult to rest. Also, for people who value having several free hours to study the Bible alone, it is a little long. I'm not sure this is a great argument; it's one I would make, but I think it may be selfish preference. On the other hand, I think it's difficult for church friends to be together and focus entirely on God, so maybe there is a legitimate argument for some balance between public and private worship on the Lord's Day.

I don't think it's wrong not to have an all day service like I mentioned, not at all, but in regard to sabbatarian issues/concerns I think it would make it easier, and more enjoyable (at least for me). It may be selfish preference because I could do the all day fellowship every single day if not for work.

I've often said to my wife that I could give up TV, the internet, etc. if I had any Christian friends who wanted to gather to discuss the bible, theology, and to pray, etc. Outside the PB I've never had a friend that would be interested in that, even Christian friends. Everyone is "too busy".

Well of course you can give us an immediate answer. You already told us you do believe in and keep the 4th command

I just asked how you do that.
You say as in scripture, could you site some of those scriptures you follow that tell us how to keep the 4th?


As for my comment on ministers being non-Confessional, no there were a group at Westminster who all signed on with no exceptions for the benefit of unity.
I see no reason not to continue that.

Again because we hold to the Confession as a proper explanation of scripture it does not mean we hold it equal to or above.

But the whole point of the Confession was t have something to agree to not something to disagree to.
How nonsensical.

Exactly. I can't speak about every visitor that comes to our church, but if a visitor is wanting to be noticed, he will be successful.

Invitations to lunch are wonderful, and I'm aware of a lot of that going on in our church. My point is that the church as a whole is not organizing it. We occasionally have visitor luncheons at the church, but that is about once a quarter. The number of times that we have "Sabbatarian" out-of-town visitors who have no place to eat lunch are very few, I imagine. Like I said before, if our church finds out that such people are coming, they will be accommodated. I just don't think it's necessary that a structure be put in place to ensure that each week each visitor is sought out and fed.

I almost forgot, we also have a continually-running Pastor's Class during the SS hour (which meets after worship) where visitors are invited to meet the Pastor, some of the elders, and learn about the church. That is how a lot of visitors get a lunch invite.

One thing that might be helpful is set a time for Bible reading at home on the Lord's Day.

Begin and end with prayer, you lead in reading and discussing the passage with your wife. If you have guests or neighbors nearby, invite them for that fixed time of Bible reading. If it's only you and your wife, that's okay. That's an example of "family worship" and God will bless your obedience.

During the period when I held to a strict Christian Sabbath position, I attended 3 OPC churches that were generally not of like conviction. I was never hindered in my observance, only encouraged. I found that most ministers and elders in these churches, strict Sabbatarian or not, observed the Lord's Day without undue interruptions from the world.

__________________
Jon Peters
Member, Reformation Fellowship (OPC) (Roseville, CA)
Folsom, CA

But once again I'm jaded by the dirty looks and looks of horror in a Sabbatarian congregation when I brought up the topic of my occupation on a particular occasion. This was years ago but I made a committment to myself then and haven't changed since that I will NOT make this a Pharasaical or Legalistic endeavor. With that said it is the "Lord's Day" and as such I give as much attention to Worship, Fellowship, and Spiritual exercises as I am able to enjoy on a particular Sunday. I truly believe that is what Christ was trying to convey in the New Testament as He wanted to avoid making the Lord's Day something in which we as observers could boast in but rather enjoy for our Benefit. My

__________________
Wayne Whitmer
Member, Rio Rancho OPC
Albuquerque, NM

Got any scripture to teach this or give you this liberty on the 4th or is it just a feeling you have?
Is anything forbidden at all in the 4th?